piston c-clip size b16 build
10-11-2016, 06:39 AM
#1
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
piston c-clip size b16 build
I'm helping a buddy put together a B16. he has cxracing rods with b16a2 pistons with floating pins. he doen't have the clips to hold the pin in though. Does anyone know where I can order them from and/or what size they are?
10-13-2016, 05:50 AM
#4
Man U FTW
10-15-2016, 10:35 PM
#7
Honda-Tech Member
Re: piston c-clip size b16 build
I think we first must agree on the terminology. ALL Honda pistons have a floating pin. The pin is actually pressed into the rod in many cases. Now, pistons that are designed to be used with either an aftermarket "floating pin" rod or a stock "floating pin" rod would have slots cut into the pin bore to accept a pair of locking clips/rings to keep the pin from sliding out and making contact with the cylinder wall.
With this said, here are some questions that need to be answered:
1) Are you using connecting rods that allow the piston pin to "float" through it or must they be pressed into the rod ??? If the answer is NO, then you do not need the locking clips anyway.
2) Do the pistons that you intend to use actually have the grooves cut into the pin bosses to accept the locking clips or are they smooth from inside to outside edge ???
If you answered YES to both of the questions above, measure the diameter of the pin boss in the piston. It will likely be 19, 21 or 22mm. Once you know, find an aftermarket brand of piston that uses the same size pin as you measured and order a set from that company... that is unless you know what brand of pistons you actually have in your possession, in which case, you contact them and get the locks directly.
Good luck.
With this said, here are some questions that need to be answered:
1) Are you using connecting rods that allow the piston pin to "float" through it or must they be pressed into the rod ??? If the answer is NO, then you do not need the locking clips anyway.
2) Do the pistons that you intend to use actually have the grooves cut into the pin bosses to accept the locking clips or are they smooth from inside to outside edge ???
If you answered YES to both of the questions above, measure the diameter of the pin boss in the piston. It will likely be 19, 21 or 22mm. Once you know, find an aftermarket brand of piston that uses the same size pin as you measured and order a set from that company... that is unless you know what brand of pistons you actually have in your possession, in which case, you contact them and get the locks directly.
Good luck.
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10-16-2016, 12:24 AM
#8
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: piston c-clip size b16 build
the pin does not need pressed in. It slides right in and out of the rod. Also there is no groove cut into the piston so I'm guessing that clips are not needed?
I've only ever build d-series engines and they have always either been pressed in or had clips. I was not aware that they made pistons that did not require the wrist pins to be locked in place
I've only ever build d-series engines and they have always either been pressed in or had clips. I was not aware that they made pistons that did not require the wrist pins to be locked in place
10-17-2016, 06:34 PM
#10
Re: piston c-clip size b16 build
I think we first must agree on the terminology. ALL Honda pistons have a floating pin. The pin is actually pressed into the rod in many cases. Now, pistons that are designed to be used with either an aftermarket "floating pin" rod or a stock "floating pin" rod would have slots cut into the pin bore to accept a pair of locking clips/rings to keep the pin from sliding out and making contact with the cylinder wall.
With this said, here are some questions that need to be answered:
1) Are you using connecting rods that allow the piston pin to "float" through it or must they be pressed into the rod ??? If the answer is NO, then you do not need the locking clips anyway.
2) Do the pistons that you intend to use actually have the grooves cut into the pin bosses to accept the locking clips or are they smooth from inside to outside edge ???
If you answered YES to both of the questions above, measure the diameter of the pin boss in the piston. It will likely be 19, 21 or 22mm. Once you know, find an aftermarket brand of piston that uses the same size pin as you measured and order a set from that company... that is unless you know what brand of pistons you actually have in your possession, in which case, you contact them and get the locks directly.
Good luck.
With this said, here are some questions that need to be answered:
1) Are you using connecting rods that allow the piston pin to "float" through it or must they be pressed into the rod ??? If the answer is NO, then you do not need the locking clips anyway.
2) Do the pistons that you intend to use actually have the grooves cut into the pin bosses to accept the locking clips or are they smooth from inside to outside edge ???
If you answered YES to both of the questions above, measure the diameter of the pin boss in the piston. It will likely be 19, 21 or 22mm. Once you know, find an aftermarket brand of piston that uses the same size pin as you measured and order a set from that company... that is unless you know what brand of pistons you actually have in your possession, in which case, you contact them and get the locks directly.
Good luck.
The piston design is either pressed pin or floating pin. Regardless of how loose the piston is on the pin, it's all about whether there is a groove for the c-clips or not.
Floating and Pressed terminology is defined by the rod which then dictates the design of the piston. Not vice versa.
Just because the piston floats on the pin regardless if it's a pressed pin or floating pin does not change the type of pin the piston is designed for.
If you buy rods that use floating pins, then you either buy pistons designed for floating pins or you machine modifications into the pistons from pressed pin setups to use floating pin design.
I do not know if there is any cons or deficiencies to using floating pin style pistons on a pressed pin setup. The spiral clips don't necessarily need to be used to hold the pin in place on pressed pin. I don't know if that causes problems.
None the less, it's is much clearer and concise if accurate definitions are maintained between the two styles of wrist pin setups regardless of how the piston rides on the wrist pins. It's defined by the rod/pin relationship.
10-19-2016, 01:55 PM
#11
Honda-Tech Member
Re: piston c-clip size b16 build
I personally disagree with your definitions as it induces ambiguity and confusion.
The piston design is either pressed pin or floating pin. Regardless of how loose the piston is on the pin, it's all about whether there is a groove for the c-clips or not.
Floating and Pressed terminology is defined by the rod which then dictates the design of the piston. Not vice versa.
Just because the piston floats on the pin regardless if it's a pressed pin or floating pin does not change the type of pin the piston is designed for.
If you buy rods that use floating pins, then you either buy pistons designed for floating pins or you machine modifications into the pistons from pressed pin setups to use floating pin design.
I do not know if there is any cons or deficiencies to using floating pin style pistons on a pressed pin setup. The spiral clips don't necessarily need to be used to hold the pin in place on pressed pin. I don't know if that causes problems.
None the less, it's is much clearer and concise if accurate definitions are maintained between the two styles of wrist pin setups regardless of how the piston rides on the wrist pins. It's defined by the rod/pin relationship.
The piston design is either pressed pin or floating pin. Regardless of how loose the piston is on the pin, it's all about whether there is a groove for the c-clips or not.
Floating and Pressed terminology is defined by the rod which then dictates the design of the piston. Not vice versa.
Just because the piston floats on the pin regardless if it's a pressed pin or floating pin does not change the type of pin the piston is designed for.
If you buy rods that use floating pins, then you either buy pistons designed for floating pins or you machine modifications into the pistons from pressed pin setups to use floating pin design.
I do not know if there is any cons or deficiencies to using floating pin style pistons on a pressed pin setup. The spiral clips don't necessarily need to be used to hold the pin in place on pressed pin. I don't know if that causes problems.
None the less, it's is much clearer and concise if accurate definitions are maintained between the two styles of wrist pin setups regardless of how the piston rides on the wrist pins. It's defined by the rod/pin relationship.
To make things really complicated, there is no industry standard for pin design... so in some cases, even though the factory rod is a floating pin design, you cannot use an aftermarket piston with the stock rod without modifying the pin bushing !!! A good example of this is the K24 TSX rod from '04-09... you cannot use high end pistons like Supertech, JE, or CP with the stock rods... the pin supplied with the pistons is about .002" too large in diameter to fit. OE replacement type pistons, say from RS Machine or Nippon Racing... work just fine with the stock rod.
Stock, all "D" series engines are a pressed pin rod design. So are all "B" series engines. The H22 is split... '92-96 are a pressed pin rod design and '97+ are a floating pin rod design. All "K" series engines are a floating pin rod design.
10-19-2016, 08:42 PM
#12
Re: piston c-clip size b16 build
Oh, I understood what you meant. Regardless of pin design, the pistons all float on the pins.
I just wanted to clarify for all others who might come in here and not be aware that the designation is determined by the rod. I so could see someone scanning through the thread and leaving thinking all wrist pins are floating period since the pistons all float on the pins.
Now, you wouldn't know if using a floating pin designed piston on a pressed pin setup would have issue would you? Would you just add the spiral clips for added measure or just leave them out? Or is it just not advisable to use spiral clip type pistons on a pressed pin rod setup?
Then the other question, are there issues having new pressed pin designed pistons machined to accept the spiral clips for a floating pin setup? I could have sworn I've heard of it being done but never really heard the results.
I just wanted to clarify for all others who might come in here and not be aware that the designation is determined by the rod. I so could see someone scanning through the thread and leaving thinking all wrist pins are floating period since the pistons all float on the pins.
Now, you wouldn't know if using a floating pin designed piston on a pressed pin setup would have issue would you? Would you just add the spiral clips for added measure or just leave them out? Or is it just not advisable to use spiral clip type pistons on a pressed pin rod setup?
Then the other question, are there issues having new pressed pin designed pistons machined to accept the spiral clips for a floating pin setup? I could have sworn I've heard of it being done but never really heard the results.
10-19-2016, 09:46 PM
#13
Honda-Tech Member
Re: piston c-clip size b16 build
I have never heard of anyone modifying a set of non-lock style pistons to accept lock clips. It is not to say it has never been done... I simply cannot imagine how one would justify the cost of the modifications necessary. Pin size also varies, so modifying the rods may be more economical. For arguments sake, one could re-bush a set of "floating pin" rods for LESS money than modifying the pistons for locks... and this would also allow the builder to specify the rod-to-pin clearance that would already be likely optimum for the piston since pins are included with every piston.
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