1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

Thats exactly what our trainer at work was telling me, about the ball mic. Either way ill be starting over from scratch once my dial bore gauge shows up. My flat mics should be good for the crank measurement correct? Im really shooting for .0015. Right in the middle of all thr specs for mains and rods from what ive found.

PyroProblem

Yep, the standard flat mics work for the crank.
If you feel the need to purchase a ball anvil mic, I got mine off Amazon for pretty cheap like $40 I think. Fowler brand. Works just fine for me. Consistent readings. Smooth thimble operation.
Yeah I think anywhere between .0015 and .0020" is pretty safe.

PyroProblem

Not to throw a wrench in the mix, but I would call AEBS and ask them if they line bore/hone the block after they press the sleeves in. I was always under the assumption line honing was required after the sleeving process.

Either way it won't really matter to much once you get your bore gauge. With that and a mic, you will be able to determine exactly what your clearances are.

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

So I got my dial bore gauge and I started over from scratch. I actually watch the evans tuning how to build a b series youtube series, and decided to follow his procedure.

I torqued the main caps in with no bearings, inserted bore gauge, found highest point, zerod gauge.
I had micrometer in the vise, put dial bore gauge in, tightened mic until bore gauge zero'd out, locked mic down. Wrote dwn that number.
Mic the crank, wrote that number down.
I than used laskeys chart and formula and plugged it in like this:
.0015=inside bore-journal diameter-(bearing thickness x2)

I did this for number 1 and 2 mains so far, and determined I needed reds foe both 1 and 2. This is odd because the block code said black and green.
-So next I put my set of green mains in number 1 and 2 woth some plastigauge. Technically it should be reading squished because the greens are thicker, but guess what: it is absolutely perfect .0015.

- do I trust plasti gauge or my measurements and laskeys formula?

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

sorry pyro I didnt see that comment before my last post, im on my phone and sometimes the website get displayed goofy.
As far as the line bore: my machine shop was supposed to double check that it was good. I actually typed up a very detailed check list including all the specs that I wanted everything machined too along with everything I wanted them to go over including line bore, sleeve job/condition, etc etc. The best I can do is call them to verify that it was actually done.
-my biggest concern now is that when I did everything the way jeff evans measures does it, I get the proper oil clearance spec with red mains on 1 and 2. But when plasti gauged with green ( these are my test only bearing just to verify before ordering complete set) it exactly matches the .0015 indicator. Its not even close to .020 or .001. So thats my only concern at this point.
- Btw the main journals mic'd out to 2.1648 and 2.1649 for all 5 tonight. For some reason when I micd them before they were around 2.1650-2.1654. Seems like a large difference. My house is climate controlled, so I dont think temperature has effected much.

PyroProblem

Try to keep measuring until you get consistent numbers. Also verify your Mic is zero'd out using the standard that came with it hopefully. It has been stated that your body temp can affect the micrometers readings so keep that in mind during measuring.
If the greens measure perfectly with your target clearance, Try to keep measuring until you can match your results with the plasti gauge. Also the "drag" you get when the Mic touches the journal can differ between different people. Don't be surprised if it takes you hours to get consistent repeatable measurements.
I'll typically measure a journal 5 times while recording numbers to verify consistency. Go through all the journals, and then do it again. IF one measurement seems out of whack compared to the others, I generally assume it was human error and throw that measurement away.

Time, practice, and a very steady hand. Even breathing a certain way helps. Just like target shooting.

PyroProblem

I meant that it may have already been line honed during the sleeving process (at AEBS), which would void the block codes.

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

Ill have to double check my mics and see if they came with a standard to zero check them. Ill go back mic the crank again after work and see how it goes. Just want my measurements to match what the plasti gauge is displaying.

another question: as far as the "feel" or "drag" of the mic goes, my mics are "ratcheting", so the stop once snug mo matter if you continue to spin the adjustment or not, would this not eliminate the "feel" factor to a point? I understand you need to feel and verify the mic is square, and not ridiculously over tight, but the ratcheted design sort of takes the guess out of it.

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

so i sat down after work and remeasured everything. im going to post my measurements and i have a few questions afterwards. i measured everything at least 10 times a piece. got rid of the highest or lowest or most out of place number and basically averaged them. i than used lasky's formula to calculate my clearances. i also took laskys bearing thickness measurements, and averaged each thickness for each color to find some middle ground and get a closer estimate of actual clearances. heres my findings:

main crank
#1 2.1648
#2 2.1648
#3 2.1647
#4 2.1647
#5 2.1647

main cap bores
#1 2.3211 (this will be a problem)
#2 2.3232
#3 2.3233
#4 2.3225(this is close to being a problem)
#5 2.3215(this will be a problem)

clearances
#1 green= -.0014 or brown= -.0016 (ends up a negative number)
#2 pink=.0012 or green=.0017
#3 pink=.0014
#4 red= .0011 (spec is .0009)
#5 red= .0001 (out of spec, too tight)

here are the bearing thickness numbers that i used after i averaged them:
(BTx2)
blue= .0792 (.1584)
blk=.07905 (.1581)
brn= .07895 (.1579)
green= .07885 (.1577)
yellow= .07875 (.1575)
pink= .07856 (.1572)
red= .07835 (.1567)

-so here we go: 1 is a problem being a negative number. 4 is too close to the low end of the spec for my liking. 5 is just too tight period.
-here is where i get super lost: when i plasti gauge #1 with green bearings, it is dead nuts with out question .0015 according to the plasti gauge paper. so why are these measurements not working? i have done them over and over and over again. i was getting worse measurements with my dial bore gauge so i went back to my t snap gauges, with a little different way of doing it that i wasn't doing before, and i can get repeatable measurements now within .0001.
-my thoughts: by the numbers, i need to get this piece of junk line honed to open up the bores slightly to run a thicker bearing to get closer to spec. but the plasti gauge says otherwise. any thoughts, suggestions, i'm open to it. thanks for everyone that has contributed anything thus far, you have all been a huge help. unfortunately, i do not know anyone local that has done this themselves, most people seem to just toss in ACL's and cross their fingers. the 2 shops we have here in the harrisburg pa area, seem to have the mentality of "you should have brought it to us, and paid 2300 for a short block assembly". thanks again guys.

PyroProblem

I don't really trust the ratcheting thimble to be honest. Ive tried tightening the thimble to 1 "click" but could never get numbers to stay very consistent. Now I just concentrate on the "drag" between the micrometer and the journal. Ive found this way works best for me.

Its hard to say why your measurements aren't matching up with the plasti-guage. The most obvious reason would be human error. Is the plasti-guage old?

Ive found the easiest way for me is to measure and record all your crank journals, Install some baseline green bearings in the block. Torque everything down nice and neat, evenly, and then set your mic in a vice and keep it set at the crank journals measurement 2.1648" for example.

Then put your dial bore gauge in the mic (which is set to that exact journal diameter) and zero it out...

So now when you put the dial bore gauge into the block (with your test bearings installed), the difference will be your bearing clearance.

If its too tight/loose, you can then use Laskeys chart to determine which bearing would be the correct size. Once the correct bearing is installed, double check it with plasti-guage.

Keep the measurements as few and simple as possible. Everytime a measurement is take, another chance for error is introduced. That's why I don't like the T gauges.

Also make sure you measure 3 places in the bore. This also will tell you if anything is out of round. Hope this helps. Its frustrating at times, but your doing it the right way. Take your time and in the end it will all be worth it!

PyroProblem

If the plastiguage indicates your measurements are correct #1 and #5 main are truly that tight, then I believe a line hone will be in order to bring it up to spec.
Another possible option is to get some ACL HX bearings. They come in a little thinner than the reds IIRC.

But at least with a line hone, your main bores will be pretty much all the same size and you'll be able to use more closely sized bearing halves..,

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

the plasti gauge does not indicate it to be that small a clearance. in fact the plasti gauge looked normal at .0015. but i just got done rechecking everything and i got the hang of the dial bore gauge finally! i also mic'd my new green bearing halves and compared them to a gently use set of oem honda bearings i found laying around and i found 2 halves that were just slightly smaller, im going to assume they are yellows. here are my findings:
mains:
1) -.0005 with greens
2) .0011 with green. .0016 with yellow
3).00135 with green, .00165 with yellow
4) .0006 with yellow
5) -.0014 with green

-so 1,4, and 5 are waaay too tight for even reds. its looking that im going to have to line hone this thing and start the process over again.
-i decided to take a look at the rods now. i mic'd all the crank rod journals and all came out consistant and 1.7710-1.1171. i have a set of new reds, and a gently used set of greens. i measured all the rods and all the bores are identical. so this should be easier than the crank.

measured 1 rod with reds installed : .0033
measured 2 rod with greens installed: .0021

is it safe to say browns will put me right around .0015? i see that my jumping 2 bearing sizes thicker to greens, i have shrunk the clearance by .0012. im just being simple and saying .0006 each. so one more size thicker and i should be around .0015?

PyroProblem

Cool cool! Yeah it's tricky getting the hang of measuring down to the ten thousandth of an inch and being consistent. Especially If you don't do it everyday like a pro builder does.
Don't worry, measuring the block is the hardest part. Rods are way easier to me. Put em in a vice, zero your gauge and measure the difference.

I'd say that's a pretty safe bet using browns to get you right at.0015". Dont forget you can always mix adjacent colors too.
I think you're on the right track. Good thing you didn't just slap some aftermarket one size fits all bearings in there. That would have been an expensive and aggravating mistake.

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

Yeah I got curious and pulled the old bearings out that came in the block when I bought it and saw they were ACL STD. They werre also blued on the back and edges, probably from the excessively tight clearances ive been measuring. Your right pyro, good thing im going through all this.

You have any ideas as to why im getting negative numbers on 1 and 5 and darn near negative on 4? Am I on the right path in needing to get this tjing line honed? If the do line hone it, do they only do certain caps or all at one time?

rain_199

Rod 3 bearings they fused into one another, they went out on mine and I "slapped on" some standard size king bearings. Ran it for 20 miles till bearings started knockin again. Ran like a dream idled it for a long time.

Then oil pressure and minor knockin sound began. I think 2 went out this time. The sound is stronger than when just one went out.

I think im gona slap on some acl hx's. I like slappin stuff on.

TomCat39

This is horrible practice and bordering on trolling.

Please refrain from suggesting poor practices in the precision building and machining section. This will be your only kind reminder.

rain_199

Im letting him know what happens if u use the wrong sizes,

take your kind reminder and shove it in your a$$

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

I will not be using incorrect or generic one size fits all bearings. I have nothing against ACL at all, they are a good quality product, if you can get thw exact clearances with them. Im looking to do this right, once. I believe im over building and being over picky. Im looking to build something that will not only support high power, but will have the long gevity of an OEM honda engine. I do not beat and punish my car, and I expect this build to last a long long time. I hate how people just waste money slapping junk together with guess work clearances, and have to pull it all apart in a couple thousand miles and waste more money. Okay off my tangent and back to the topic. Thanks for all input, even the warning of poor tolerances.

-being that some of these clearances are -.0014, can a hone get that back into spec? Thats about .030 in clearancing. And do they only do the trouble caps or run the tool through all of them?

PyroProblem

I think when the bearings turn blue (signs of overheating) it could be from insufficient clearance ,perhaps not enough to cause metal to metal contact, but enough that less oil volume gets to the bearing and less heat is carried away resulting in excessive heat in the bearing shell itself.

Hard to say why only a few mains are out of spec. Possibly from previous machine work, maybe from a a really hard life.
In one block I had checked and measured from a race shop, they said my mains were so far out, that they would have recommended I find a new block, but since the block was sleeved already, the extra machine work was still performed to save the block. I don't remember how far it was out, but everything measure out ok when I checked.
They said aluminum blocks distort more that iron blocks and when you have all that weight slinging around @ 9k rpms and a 200 degree aluminum block, I'm sure things will change around a little.

In 99% sure that when they line hone the mains, they typically do all of them. I suppose you could just do the ends 1 and 5, but having a fresh true crank centerline through all the main caps is a good idea.
Are these main caps the originals to the block?

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

honestly I cannot confirm 100% that they are original to the block. I was told they were, but I bought it used, supposedly freshly sleeved and machined. but when my machine shop inspected it and the bores, they said none of the bores were bored equally lol. so they went ahead and bored it out for my new pistons, and set my ptw clearance at .004 per my request.

-after doing some reading, and thinking a lot on what you have been saying pyro, I think im going to shoot for some slightly looses tolerances than I originally planned.

ide like to get the mains dialed in the .0017 range (mine are .0016 and .00165 on 2 and 3, is that close enough?)
and as for the rods ide like to be in that .0017-.0018 range as well.
I plan on running 5w30 rotella t6 full synthetic, which is what my current, bone stock turbo b16 has been running for years. I believe with the clearances in the .0017 range that my oil choice with work well, and ill still be well within tolerances of the OEM but a slight cushion for increased power levels. once again this car is not a race only car, I drive it only on nice days and is in storage more than its driven lol, put 1900 miles on it last year. pyro: do you think it is wise to shoot for the .0017-.0018 range for my clearances?

TomCat39

Happy vacation.

PyroProblem

There's a saying I've heard through the years.
"If you build it loose, only you will know. If you build it tight, everyone will know."

Another rule of thumb I've always heard and seems to hold true is .001" of bearing clearance per every 1 inch of journal diameter.
So your 1.77xx" rod journals should have around .0017" of oil clearance, which you pretty much have.

Also keep in mind with high HP, high rpms, and high heat, things expand and contract more than a stock 160 hp engine. Rod big ends will try to oval themselves out, crankshafts flex (hence I believe why the middle main calls for a little more clearance), and this thin film of oil is the only thing that protects everything. A couple extra 10 thousandths I think is a good idea for any performance build.
So your .0018" sounds pretty safe to me for your rods and mains, and maybe go up to .002 for the center main.

These are pretty much the same specs I used on my last 2 liter build and will be using on my current stroker build.
I haven't had a oil problem in anything so far (knock on wood). In fact the last engine I built, the bearings looked perfect upon disassembly.

Search around and see what the other turbo guys are running with success. I pretty much stick with n/a Honda builds so I cant tell you what the turbo guys like.

PyroProblem

Not the wisest thing to insult the moderators guy!

PyroProblem

Haha, saw that coming from a mile away!

TomCat39

I'm rather brain dead, is that width or circumference?