Project Build - A Michigander's H23AV (Cancelled)
 

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...15f2bc753c.jpg

This thread and project are cancelled as of now, for reasons explained in post #53. I'ts streamlined into a Euro-R mild-massage project now with a goal of 200whp, with eventual sights set on a 13.9 ET in my 5G Prelude. This thread left up for posterity.

Well, its finally here. A year after first learning about this engine in in the "H23A blue top cam dyno" thread. Bought from DallasJDMMotors on eBay, arrived via Estes shipping.

This engine's eventual home is actually a bit in the air. There are four rot holes on Kaoru's body right now, the rear subframe...likely save-able. Depending on the estimate I get back for repair of the body I'll sniff around for another CD5 or even a DC2. In the meantime, I have an engine to start building. And I would very much like to keep this engine naturally aspirated. The overall build is inspired from crxsi's posts about his blue-top and I'm going after a similar power goal. 240/250whp. I need enough power to still be faster than my brother's 09 SI when he bolts a blower onto it.

The build plan is as follows, constrained by 93-octane gas and a 8000rpm rev ceiling. The rev cap is both for long-term durability as well as an understanding that to properly utilize the extra rpm range I will need camshafts that shift the powerband higher-up than I would like.

-Type-S pistons @ .25mm over
-Honing for the block
-New main/con-rod bearings
-Cams, looking like Crower, need help with this one
-Crower dual valvesprings and steel retainers
-Pure Tuning's Spec-B head porting
-ARP head stud kit
-Transfer over the Euro-R manifold currently on the H22 in the car
-Insulating gasket for IM
-70mm Blox TB
-PLM 4-2-1 header
-3" exhaust w/catalyst, no cutout
-3" ebay intake pipe with Bpi/Blox velocity stack.
-Current T2T4 transmission. Will be kept even if I go to a civic/integra.
-Gates timing belt kit w/ water pump
-Fel-Pro head gasket kit

So, that is a rough idea of my plans. Build progress is going to be constrained by finances. I'm looking at mid-late summer to have this combo dyno tuned.

Primary questions:
1.) Regarding camshaft choices, I'm seeing some contradictory descriptions from Crower; they have one set of cams that are listed as requiring the valvetrain upgrade, but another set that use stock primary lobe profiles says "stock valvetrain with stock redline is ok". Granted, the Crower valvetrain with steel retainers isn't expensive for what it is so I have no problem going with that.
-As a sub-question, I'm wondering just how much difference there is between the 'stage 0' camshafts that usually have only a modest increase in lift that will not bind the oem valve springs, and the 'stage 2' camshafts that are what I see commonly employed.
-Also, if one does select the milder stock-valvetrain camshafts, does head porting, at least what's described in Pure Tuning's "spec-B" head package make a difference worth the cost? I assume that head porting is one of those diminishing-returns items, and understand that, but if it works with everything else and gets me to my goal it's worth it.

2.) PURE Tuning - Competition Cylinder Head Porting This is Pure Tuning's description of their Spec-B head package. I've read that port matching can be a bad idea, and it seems to be one of the most significant things as far as improvements to the head described in the list. I'm looking at Pure mainly because they are relatively local and the head can be driven down there. Are there other shops I should be looking at that are better reputed?

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

Thats a nice looking motor. Low use engines are sort of hard to find... Why not run it and have fun for a bit while it still has that oem magic inside. O/S type S pistons - meh. Theres no point in damaging a perfectly good factory bore. Plus, This piston is for an h22. Its gonna be out of the hole with the 95mm crank, and could work, but its not really right unless you go with custom sized rods. Mahle forged pistons with custom rods, that would be proper.

Personally I like the head stock because its so dependable and timed perfect without doing anything. To each their own. The euro R intake, love it its a great manifold. But, if your goal is to make much power like 250whp its going to hold you back. The main problem is it can support a 68-70mm throttle body max, and even for that the manifold needs to be bored out. 70mm is kinda small. Plus you have to deal with the EGR and IACV ports, which is not really a problem but this can be avoided with a true high performance intake.

3" exhaust, good call. Not feeling the fel pro head gasket tho. OEM all the way.

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

The H23AV rods are shorter than a H22's. I have it on trustworthy authority that Prelude Type-S pistons are even with the deck height at TDC. And if I'm changing pistons, might as well have the bore honed first, especially on a unknown-miles engine. Though if it indeed has smooth bores that could be $140 I can save not having it honed. A sleeved block and custom pistons and rods are out of my budget and I will leave the long block alone and bolt a snail on it before doing that.

I'm not going to be quicker than my brother's Civic for long with a stock head. My research online has led me to believe that the Euro-R is the ideal manifold, better than Skunk-2 or any others I am unaware of. IACV has been relocated. EGR is already blocked off (distribution manifold cleaned and blocked too)

Fel-Pro gaskets because the whole kit is inexpensive and I'm not force-feeding this engine alot of pressure or taking it to stratospheric rpm. I trust Fel-pro for most other stuff, I'm confident in their head gaskets. Just like Gates and the timing-related components.

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

Most definitely it is not the correct fit, using h22 pistons in an h23. H22 pistons are 31mm compression height. h23 pistons are 30.5mm compression height. Thus out of the hole 0.5mm. Not to mention oem H pistons are known for weak ring lands. Why go to all the trouble to install a piston which has failed many times at higher power levels. Look it up on google to see the carnage engines have suffered. Mahle and oem s2000 pistons are forged, better. But a custom 141mm connecting rod would make it work.

The cool thing about FRM cylinders is they dont easily wear out. Its not an iron cylinder which needs to be honed. Especially if its low miles. Actually, there seems to be few users who have oversized successfully. And, the block will never be the same. For this reason its best to leave an FRM cylinder alone, unless its damaged, in which case it might be worth the risk. I personally have taken apart a 300,000+ mile h22 with little to no cylinder wear. The rings get smoked easy but the cylinders are very hard and last a very long time.

I hear ya, just my personal opinion and experience from using this engine, and trying different setups. The cams which make power such as skunk2 pro series are great and proven but the risk of rocker damage goes up big time along with more stress on the engine from higher revving. Install also becomes much more complex with the need to use adjustable gears and a degree wheel. Like I said, I love the Euro R manifold, I have one on my car. OEM is hard to beat. But if you want 250whp a 70mm throttle is weak. a 3" intake with 80mm throttle or better yet itbs is gonna pay off.

And just sayin here but no pro engine builder from chevys to hondas to bmws uses fel pro gaskets. OEM costs more but is the best without question.

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

https://honda-tech.com/all-motor-nat...3167079/page8/

Bluehbcivic's build is what initially inspired me. And looking at his dyno graph, it looks like there's not much point going past 7500rpm so fuel cut at that point would be where I'd be happy keeping it. And this engine would be fed a strict diet of 10w30 VR1 from the point it got dropped in the car to try and mitigate wear.

I'm also very much more liking the idea of an Integra or Civic, rather than repairing/replacing my Accord's body, so my power goals have diminished. Bigger cams are still in the cards, but it might be an entry level set, which the extra zinc in the oil should be able to take care of just fine.

Also, in the above thread, many people concur that the H23AV rods are 22k shorter than normal H rods (and on the last page), so Type-S pistons sit like normal pistons. Worst case scenario is I need to buy a thicker head gasket to make it work. Also, it seems the H23AV rods have oiling holes and passages built in, so the oil squirters from a H22 aren't necessary, especially given a relatively mild NA build. But I will take the advice and examine the cylinder walls before buying the pistons.

And I think I will try and modify the OEM intake manifold, especially if I can find additional spacer sections to

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

pure tuning will take care of you. they know their shit

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

New plan, a plan I've decided to pursue as soon as I have the engine's new recipient:

Rather than build a 250whp engine to put into a car that needs $1000 in rust repair, or a new shell, I'm going to aim for a 230whp setup in a 6th gen Civic. I'd like the extra fuel economy, and from talking to customers and coworkers at work, the interior noise of a Civic isn't going to be much more if any than this particular Accord. A layer of rubberized undercoating when the engine is out will help as well. A $400 powertrain from the Junkyard, and I can sell the Accord.

-Type-S pistons, fresh rod bearings, mains too if the crank has to come out.
-ARP head studs, OEM head gasket, FEL PRO for all else because cheap @ work.
-Hondata IM gasket
-PLM H2B 4-2-1 header, modified to have a cone back to 3" after the collector
-3" exhaust; catalyst, resonator (long one or two short) and Vibrant dual-exit muffler, TruBendz piping kit.
-Some form of Stage-1 cams, brand to be determined still
-Skunk2 Alpha 70mm throttle body
-Intake manifold work, either the Euro-R or stock H23AV
-My current T2T4 trans, 12lb flywheel, and Exedy Stage 1 clutch, through DA Integra axles sourced from my work.

So, question time.

1.)With the improved valve relief of the Type-S pistons, will basic stage-1 camshafts be safe for a 7500-7600rpm fuel cut on stock valve springs and fresh valve guides? On the topic of camshafts, I'ce compared the Crower and Sunk2 stage 1 camshafts and determined that they look similar enough that I can select them based upon the price differential, am I incorrect in this? Also, with a mild build such as this, are adjustable cam gears worth the investment?

2.) For this new power goal, would cleaning-up the Euro-R manifold according to the write-ups and port matching the throttle body be...suited for my aim? I'm reading that while the Euro-R can accept a 70mm TB it's not advised, and I'm only selecting 70mm over 68mm because Skunk2 do not sell their Alpha series in anything between 66mm and 70mm. Granted, 66mm is still bigger than stock, but not by much. I'm reading that the H22 manifold is more accepting of a 70mm TB, and I'm not opposed to at least porting it halfway (gutting plenum/butterflies/merging primary/secondary runners), but I'd stop there only for lack of experience and equipment.

3.) The flywheel I bought was of an...inexpensive brand, shall we say, and the timing marks in the flywheel are not close enough, in terms of distance measured axially of the crankshaft, from the timing mark in the bellhousing to be useful. The flex-plate attached to the engine is right next to it, however, and is very thin if the spacer is removed. Would it even be considerable to sandwich the flex plate under the flywheel? In this instance, the torque converter carries the teeth for the starter to engage.

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

Had an unsettling day at work so I stopped at Harbor Freight for a parts organizer rack (to compartmentalize all the hardware and small parts I take off) and popped over at my Uncle's for a couple hours to start taking down the engine.

There was very sludgy oil in the oil pan, about half a quart's worth.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...df9549f94e.jpg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...8cfdfecd50.jpg

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...519891d9d4.jpg

Umm... 0_0'

This is going to be interesting. Not in a terribly positive way I imagine, either.

On the other hand, I mic'ed the throttle body and it read 62mm. So even the 66mm piece Sunk2 have in their Alpha line would be an appreciable upgrade over this one. This TB looks identical to the one that's on my euroR Mani on my car's current engine. No fitv, but it has the dummy coolant passage and has "HPD" on the casting.

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

Always pull the valvecover. Hopefully it's not too bad in there.

In P-T: personally, I like Aaron, but that's it. I won't talk to anyone else there. Whether or not they deserve the recognition they receive is to be seen, IMO. Maybe I'm just not exposed to their clientele, but they're getting business from somewhere, just not many people I know.

We really need to talk elsewhere. My friend is building a killer H23AV right now and lives about a block away.

Also, the CD chassis is MASSIVELY nicer, more comfortable, quiet, and more solidly built than any Civic of a similar era. Probably even ip to the 2016's. I've owned a few Integras, Civics, and Accords, and the Accords are ALWAYS the nicest place to spend time out of the three. The build quality of every 96-00 civic I've been in is just.... Crap compared to a CD. You'll feel the price of building to a cost with the Civic. I personally like the CD"s suspension a bit more, too. Lots of travel makes for a nice ride. The 92-95 Civics and DC Integras are MILES better than the later civics, and they're still not as "nice" as the Accords. To me, that extra little bit of comfort and build quality(not to mention space and no extra ricecar tax) is worth the 300lb hit.

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

According to Edmunds it's a fair bit more than 300lb. 400-500lb with a DC chassis, 700lb at least with a EG hatch. It's also a style thing. I dunno. I like smaller cars. My brother's SVT Focus (2003) handled amazingly and had such a quick rack, it was the perfect size and feel for me.

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

Well...as bad as I expected.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...be25dac227.jpg


The engine looks like its never had its oil changed. This reminds me of that photo of the VR6 engine floating around the internet, usually heading a horror-story thread.


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...83a49b0921.jpg


This did not encourage me.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...05319314a6.jpg


But this did. All of the cam caps exhibit this appearance, some discoloration and signs of wear but no scoring or marring.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...10c400f678.jpg


And the camshafts themselves don't appear to be excessively worn either.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...823bec69ad.jpg


And the bores look almost perfect. No scoring or marks at all aside from what gunk and crap dropped in when I actually pulled the head off. I wouldn't be surprised if I drain the oil filter, send it in to Blackstone, and they tell me that it's the oil the car drove off the dealership floor with. Ah well, moving on...

So...encouraging. Still buying a parts washer and soaking the head. After I recharge my arms (dear god those head bolts v_v) and my enthusia I'll flip the engine over and pull the oil pan.

Lesson learned: When an engine on eBay is described as "Tested good compression but gunky", look at another listing. ^_^

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

Good stuff. One thing: is that there is no need to hone those cylinders if there is no scoring that is sufficient enough to get your attention when you run your fingernail over it. FRM honing is a special process that you want to avoid if possible. From what is visible in the pics, the FRM sleeves are in great condition. Also, I am almost certain that The171, is confused about the compression height of the H23A BTpistons. The H23A uses a piston with the same compression height as the H22, unlike the H23A1.

OF note: I used the OEM injectors and they were about maxed out on 93 octane and stock compression making 225+. Before you get some cams, I would dyno the car with the OEM cams to see how your powerband is and if you are happy with it. They can do really well under the right conditions. Also, if you do upgrade, then you have a solid reference point. They can be pretty strong in stock long-block form, and I had one that made 215 WHP without a proper tune. That being said, remember that a dyno is a tool and they all read differently, and even the same car will read differently on different days/conditions.

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

Ah, that's why you want me to go with stock cams first. I was wondering if upgraded injectors were needed for the 250whp H23AV builds I was seeing, I guess that answers the question then. I'm going to have it tuned at Pure on their Mustang dyno, which Kaoru's current engine was on. It made 185/142 at the wheels through a tired Accord gearbox and a Prelude Vtec oem intake. That will be my comparison, as as soon as I replace my tires, I'm hitting the local dragway to get some...concretely relatable numbers.

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

Not only that, but the stock cams may be the best for you on balance. Depending on variables, they may make nearly the same power as aftermarket but with more mid-range and TQ. So much goes into final performance, and driver preferences that it is difficult to say purchasing an aftermarket cam is the right decision. Especially in this particular case since the OEM cams are known to do so well in these engines. It may seem counter intuitive, but is is probable that the OEM camshafts are the best choice in many applications when all things are considered. They are at least worth tuning once before you decide to switch... at least if your tuner is reasonable in his/her fees.

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

Pure Tuning of Toledo OH charges about $400 to tune a NA car on Hondata. I was also charged a hookup fee, which next time I'm going to argue. Now, is it not correct that the manual trans H23AV's had Type-S cams, where the automatic ones had standard H22A cams? My engine has a flex plate.

Oh...on that note. The aftermarket flywheel I bought had timing marks, but they're not usable because its too far away from the block. Realistically, if this flex plate is 1/8" thick, can I sandwich it under the flywheel so I can use its timing marks?

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

As far as I know all the H23A BTs have the JDM H22 spec cams and did not ever come with type S cams. I miced 2 sets from the automatic H23A BTs (one P13 one PDE) and they measured out the same as each other and the JDM H22 cams. I heard other folks say the PDE have Type S cams, but I disagree. Unless the Type S cam lobes measure identical to the cam lobes in the P13 H23A BT head, or my head had incorrect cams in it from the previous owner, or my digital calipers are way off and happened to produce pretty much identical numbers on either set of cam, then this cannot be correct. Because of this, I believe there is no difference in the cams in either head. Please someone measure a set out of a PDE head, and measure a set out of a P13 head and tell me what you get. Be sure to take pics... maybe I got one with a weird cam somehow but I doubt it. Next one I order will be a PDE and I'll check again against the other 3 sets I have. Tachi, if you have a PDE, mic them and post your measurements. I'll dig out a set of mine and see what I got too.

I have seen some H23A BTs sold with the manual trans, but I am not sure if they were offered that way from Honda or if they came to the importer from modded cars, or modded by another secondary source (importer or otherwise). In any event, the F20Bs did differ in the way you mentioned. I do know that seeing them on a manual transmission from an importer is unusual.

I wouldn't worry about the flywheel timing marks. I use the timing marks on the crank snout and oil pump housing or if the harmonic balancer is marked, check either against the cam marks then go with that. If I were doing something that requires more precision, I would use a piston stop and degree wheel.

My tuner charges me like 250-275 on the rollers. $400 + a hookup fee sounds like too much to me, but I am thrifty generally. Hookup fee sounds like an excuse to charge more money for service incidental and inclusive to what you are already paying for. Of course, "hookup fee" is kind of ambiguous so I don't really know. Could be code for "hooking myself up with more of your money".

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

No timing marks on the crank nose. I'm looking for the H22A4 timing cover and harmonic balancer as I believe, having the CAS down there, they had timing marks there as well. That search is failing me, thus the desire to re-use a device obviously engineered to work with the block. This is to be able to adjust ignition timing whilst the engine is in motion.

I believe my head did have a PDE casting mark on it. Most likely its going to be Wednesday to go back over and dig in again, but I'll try to get there sooner.

Like I've said earlier, I think Pure know they're the only guys that come-up on a google search in the area. The garage Chrisnick is having his Accord dyno'ed at today I had never heard of before. I also lost the receipt of the tuning session, but it was a S100 license and the tuning, so a bit under $700 sounded right.

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

I would atleast take the head off, apart and get it cleaned. Up I would even recommend doing a valve job and new guides installed. Yes not cheap... But I have never seen that much nastyness in a motor in all my h23v blue top and h22 motors... What kinda scares me is your cams should be blue. I see a green tint to them as if coolant was in there. Well headgasket time... either way head come off...

Oil gallies in bottom would scare me as well if the head had that much build up...

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

I smelled no coolant, and no coolant came out when I drained the residual oil from the pan. Was also reasonably assured by the seller that compression was solid. The head and block are getting stripped, both going to go to the machine shop to get tanked (after I pull the balance shafts from the block and plug their galley tap) I'm confident that the engine is still serviceable based on how little apparent wear there is in the cam journals.

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

Update:

I finally got around to popping the main girdle. Verdict: New main bearings are needed. Mostly clean, very slight pitting in one bearing, some wear of the top layer of aluminum on all, three had...it looks like what happens when bondo chips, little potholes in the metal of the bearing about 5mm long, there was one on three of the bearings. Taking out the crank, the upper-half bearings look fine. Can't tell about the thrust bearings, might as well replace them too. Crank looks just fine, no visible damage.

The con-rod bearings all need to be replaced as well. The piston skirts have some wear on them. The #1 piston skirt has a curious groove in it that corresponds with a groove in the cylinder wall. The groove is just barely shallow enough not to catch my bare fingernail.

My phone...got lost, so no photos yet, but I had a colleague at work photo the main bearings and one of the pistons for visual reference. Those should be here in a day.

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...aa3ef4a953.jpg

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...2aa3c9d548.jpg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...30c17d15d8.jpg

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...6559df5904.jpg

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...b919c4b0b0.jpg

I'm not sure how well the bearing wear shows through. It's a shame because I plasti-gauged the main bearings and there is less than two thousandths clearance(main bolts torqued to 30 ft-lb). The rod bearings gauged similarly; less than three thousandths.

The groove in the cylinder is not deep enough to catch my nail on. I'm curious as to what could have caused that gouge in the piston though. Regardless, it looks as if the cylinders won't need a hone. What about the wear on the piston skirt?

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

Piston Failure Analysis

The link above is a good analysis of piston failure modes.

Your wear looks like its closer to indications of lean mixture (AFR) or detonation.

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

Looks like debris damage to me.

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

Update. My uncle pointed out a smoothed lip that has worn in on the pistons, in the photo of the bore above, the lip is noticeably felt where the demarcation between the cylinder and that darker band at the top. Nothing sharp or huge, but it is felt. I dropped the block off at the machine shop to mic the bores and tell me if a hone is still possible. The dude at the shop seems to think my pistons are still usable, so there's hope there.

Re: Project Kaoru - A Michigander's H23AV
 

Well, maybe it's because I trimmed my nails a couple days ago, but picking up the block from the shop, I can catch my nail on the groove. The machinist mic'ed the bores at being two-thousandths out of round on the thrust axis, which is consitent with the piston skirt wear. $140 for the hone, which is necessary at this point for this block in particular, and it is not their first FRM block. I called the place the machinist referenced me to, balancing of the rotating assembly would be $160. So, I have a choice here. I can have them hone it out two thousandths, which would likely remove that groove, but given the skirt wear also puts me at probably the upper limits of the tolerance of piston-cylinder fit. Or, I have them take it out the full 10-thou, out to 87.25mm, buy a set of the overbore type-S pistons ($230), and to borrow the colloquialism; "Buy once, cry once."