Horsepower Vs. Torque
03-10-2006, 03:02 AM
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Re: (hu)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hu »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">In the case of Honda, cars have more hp and less torque. In regards to BHP the STI has 300hp and 300tq. My wifes ML55 AMG has 390tq and 349hp (BHP). What is the secret to getting a vehicle with more torque than horsepower???</TD></TR></TABLE>Flow?
03-10-2006, 05:00 AM
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Re: Horsepower Vs. Torque (DonF)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DonF »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There is an "old" saying HP sells motors, TQ wins races. That is mostly true. A 300 BHP 454 chevy VS a 300 BHP Honda, in the same car, will win every time. </TD></TR></TABLE>
LOL, that must be the dummest generalization I've ever heard.....
It's really very simple ; What moves the car is the amount of work the engine can produce. That is how many watts it produces. 1hp = 735watts.
How many watts the engine produces at a certain rpm is determined by the mentioned "hp = rpm x torque / 5252" formula.
So in other words ; What you need for a fast car is a a lot of revs and a lot of torque. That will produce a lot of watts. Simple as that.
Doesnt matter if you have a lot of torque if you cant rev it much (ie slow *** diesels). Your engine won't produce much power then. And likewise it doesn't matter if you have a lot of revs if your engine don't produce much torque.
LOL, that must be the dummest generalization I've ever heard.....
It's really very simple ; What moves the car is the amount of work the engine can produce. That is how many watts it produces. 1hp = 735watts.
How many watts the engine produces at a certain rpm is determined by the mentioned "hp = rpm x torque / 5252" formula.
So in other words ; What you need for a fast car is a a lot of revs and a lot of torque. That will produce a lot of watts. Simple as that.
Doesnt matter if you have a lot of torque if you cant rev it much (ie slow *** diesels). Your engine won't produce much power then. And likewise it doesn't matter if you have a lot of revs if your engine don't produce much torque.
03-10-2006, 05:46 AM
#53
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Re: (hu)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hu »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">In the case of Honda, cars have more hp and less torque. In regards to BHP the STI has 300hp and 300tq. My wifes ML55 AMG has 390tq and 349hp (BHP). What is the secret to getting a vehicle with more torque than horsepower???</TD></TR></TABLE>
Very simple. Take any proper engine and make the rev-limiter cut in at around 5000rpms, and you'll have a hell of a "torque monster"! Or, just under-engineer the engine to blow up at anything past 5000rpms. This seemed to work great for a lot of domestics back in the day!
Very simple. Take any proper engine and make the rev-limiter cut in at around 5000rpms, and you'll have a hell of a "torque monster"! Or, just under-engineer the engine to blow up at anything past 5000rpms. This seemed to work great for a lot of domestics back in the day!
03-10-2006, 06:40 AM
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Re: Horsepower Vs. Torque (daver)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by daver »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
negatory. To keep within the "rule of thumb" limits, i was talking about ->peak hp to weight.
like i said a few posts up or so, power under the curve (ie. average hp), would of course be a more accurate measurment. But the peak hp/weight "generality" does pretty good.
d</TD></TR></TABLE>
i understand...
negatory. To keep within the "rule of thumb" limits, i was talking about ->peak hp to weight.
like i said a few posts up or so, power under the curve (ie. average hp), would of course be a more accurate measurment. But the peak hp/weight "generality" does pretty good.
d</TD></TR></TABLE>
i understand...
03-10-2006, 07:36 AM
#55
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Re: (Lsos)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lsos »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Take any proper engine and make the rev-limiter cut in at around 5000rpms, and you'll have a hell of a "torque monster"! </TD></TR></TABLE>
CRX HF anyone? But the reason those cars make more torque than horsepower is because the torque they produce is made at a lower rpm, so when you run it through the equation to get hp, you end up with less. At higher RPMs, they're making less torque, and so the peak hp number suffers. Looking at the equation of hp = (torque * rpm) / 5252, it becomes obvious that if you never get to 5252rpm, you'll always have more torque than hp. And if the torque falls faster than you gain rpm, hp will be dropping too.
To get more torque than hp, just shift the torque curve down as far as you can. Case in point, a diesel. Not uncommon to have 400hp and 800 lb*ft.
CRX HF anyone? But the reason those cars make more torque than horsepower is because the torque they produce is made at a lower rpm, so when you run it through the equation to get hp, you end up with less. At higher RPMs, they're making less torque, and so the peak hp number suffers. Looking at the equation of hp = (torque * rpm) / 5252, it becomes obvious that if you never get to 5252rpm, you'll always have more torque than hp. And if the torque falls faster than you gain rpm, hp will be dropping too.
To get more torque than hp, just shift the torque curve down as far as you can. Case in point, a diesel. Not uncommon to have 400hp and 800 lb*ft.
03-10-2006, 08:27 AM
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Re: (hu)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hu »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">In the case of Honda, cars have more hp and less torque. In regards to BHP the STI has 300hp and 300tq. My wifes ML55 AMG has 390tq and 349hp (BHP). What is the secret to getting a vehicle with more torque than horsepower???</TD></TR></TABLE>
hu, the secret is no secret at all. Simply put, for an engine to have more torque than hp, it has to have <U>no top end </U>power (ie. relative to its low end).
By "top end", i mean power above 5252rpms.
If the engines torque curve peaks lower than 5252 rpms, and makes (relatively) "stink all" for torque above 5252rpms, regardless of how high it revs, it'll make more tq than hp.
If the engine's tq peaks higher up than 5252rpms, it'll make more hp than torque guaranteed.
Just plug some numbers into the formula and it works everytime torqueXRPM/5252 =hp
honda makes engines with nice long flat tq curves from low low rpms right up to high redlines, but still get criticized for no low end power. Problem them is they're generally small, low torque engines, and gearing is what makes them worthwhile as performance machines. But that only applies for the higher rpms; low rpms can't take advantage of gearing.
d
hu, the secret is no secret at all. Simply put, for an engine to have more torque than hp, it has to have <U>no top end </U>power (ie. relative to its low end).
By "top end", i mean power above 5252rpms.
If the engines torque curve peaks lower than 5252 rpms, and makes (relatively) "stink all" for torque above 5252rpms, regardless of how high it revs, it'll make more tq than hp.
If the engine's tq peaks higher up than 5252rpms, it'll make more hp than torque guaranteed.
Just plug some numbers into the formula and it works everytime torqueXRPM/5252 =hp
honda makes engines with nice long flat tq curves from low low rpms right up to high redlines, but still get criticized for no low end power. Problem them is they're generally small, low torque engines, and gearing is what makes them worthwhile as performance machines. But that only applies for the higher rpms; low rpms can't take advantage of gearing.
d
03-10-2006, 07:08 PM
#58
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Re: (SnoFlake)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SnoFlake »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">THE OLDER YOU GET THE MORE YOU WILL APPRECIATE TORQUE!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Why? tired of shifting?
</TD></TR></TABLE>Why? tired of shifting?
03-10-2006, 07:10 PM
#59
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Re: Horsepower Vs. Torque (Pompiuses)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DonF »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There is an "old" saying HP sells motors, TQ wins races. That is mostly true. A 300 BHP 454 chevy VS a 300 BHP Honda, in the same car, will win every time. </TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Pompiuses »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
LOL, that must be the dummest generalization I've ever heard..... </TD></TR></TABLE>
Its spelled "dumbest" and what DonF said is completely correct.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Pompiuses »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
LOL, that must be the dummest generalization I've ever heard..... </TD></TR></TABLE>
Its spelled "dumbest" and what DonF said is completely correct.
03-10-2006, 07:28 PM
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Re: (LsVtec92Hatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LsVtec92Hatch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Why? tired of shifting? </TD></TR></TABLE>
lol...NO ITS JSUT A OLD SAYING!
and i have began to see the light thats all!
Why? tired of shifting? </TD></TR></TABLE>
lol...NO ITS JSUT A OLD SAYING!
and i have began to see the light thats all!
03-10-2006, 07:46 PM
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Re: (SnoFlake)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SnoFlake »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">THE OLDER YOU GET THE MORE YOU WILL APPRECIATE TORQUE!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
and a quiet exhaust and softer springs too.
</TD></TR></TABLE>and a quiet exhaust and softer springs too.
03-10-2006, 09:39 PM
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Re: (daver)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by daver »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
and a quiet exhaust and softer springs too.</TD></TR></TABLE>I'm 20yrs old (just turned). I have Skunk2 race springs and KYB AGX struts. My exhaust manifold just got messed and it's got a bad leak at the joint of the head and the exhaust manifold.
You don't need to be old to appreciate comfortability. I miss a smooth ride, but at the same time I LOVE the way it handles (I could still lose the exhaust leak). I just need a second car.
and a quiet exhaust and softer springs too.</TD></TR></TABLE>I'm 20yrs old (just turned). I have Skunk2 race springs and KYB AGX struts. My exhaust manifold just got messed and it's got a bad leak at the joint of the head and the exhaust manifold.
You don't need to be old to appreciate comfortability. I miss a smooth ride, but at the same time I LOVE the way it handles (I could still lose the exhaust leak). I just need a second car.
03-10-2006, 10:27 PM
#63
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Re: (daver)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by daver »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hu, the secret is no secret at all. Simply put, for an engine to have more torque than hp, it has to have <U>no top end </U>power (ie. relative to its low end). By "top end", i mean power above 5252rpms.
If the engines torque curve peaks lower than 5252 rpms, and makes (relatively) "stink all" for torque above 5252rpms, regardless of how high it revs, it'll make more tq than hp.
If the engine's tq peaks higher up than 5252rpms, it'll make more hp than torque guaranteed.</TD></TR></TABLE>
My old nonVTEC H/F-series hybrid illustrates that point quite well. The stock H23 cams suck so bad that the torque dropped off real quick after 5000 rpm. No top end but great torque. Since then I have added some cams and now it is a little better.
If the engines torque curve peaks lower than 5252 rpms, and makes (relatively) "stink all" for torque above 5252rpms, regardless of how high it revs, it'll make more tq than hp.
If the engine's tq peaks higher up than 5252rpms, it'll make more hp than torque guaranteed.</TD></TR></TABLE>
My old nonVTEC H/F-series hybrid illustrates that point quite well. The stock H23 cams suck so bad that the torque dropped off real quick after 5000 rpm. No top end but great torque. Since then I have added some cams and now it is a little better.
03-11-2006, 07:12 AM
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Re: Horsepower Vs. Torque (LsVtec92Hatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LsVtec92Hatch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">DonF said is completely correct. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Please explain to me excatly why is that....?
A 10000rpm 1,8liter 300hp Honda can take tremendous advantage of gearing making it push a lot of power to the ground. A 4000rpm 300hp 454 chevy cannot.
If your talking about low end grunt, then the story will off course be different. The bigger displament 454 can off course make more torque end thus make more power at lower rpms. But low end grunt doens't really make your car fast.
Please explain to me excatly why is that....?
A 10000rpm 1,8liter 300hp Honda can take tremendous advantage of gearing making it push a lot of power to the ground. A 4000rpm 300hp 454 chevy cannot.
If your talking about low end grunt, then the story will off course be different. The bigger displament 454 can off course make more torque end thus make more power at lower rpms. But low end grunt doens't really make your car fast.
03-11-2006, 07:29 AM
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Re: Horsepower Vs. Torque (JokerTypeR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JokerTypeR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No, but it will jump you off the line quick as ****...IF the tires will hook up...
Again...gearing.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Sure if you're drag racing, then a lot of low end torque will pay off when accelerating from a stand still.
Due to the lesser torque the small Honda engine must be kept at high revs to perform equally, making it slower off the line.
Go to a real track where you can keep the Honda motor in it's powerband and it'll will be fast. Probably faster due to gearing.
Again...gearing.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Sure if you're drag racing, then a lot of low end torque will pay off when accelerating from a stand still.
Due to the lesser torque the small Honda engine must be kept at high revs to perform equally, making it slower off the line.
Go to a real track where you can keep the Honda motor in it's powerband and it'll will be fast. Probably faster due to gearing.
03-11-2006, 07:35 AM
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Re: Horsepower Vs. Torque (JokerTypeR)
nah, a 300hp honda should be just as fast as a 300hp chevy (even given same weight). If anything, the honda should be faster thanks to shorter gearing (and flatter tq curves from what i've seen). But if racing from a dig, the chevy will likely win everytime ->because its rwd. thats all.
d
d
03-11-2006, 07:41 AM
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Re: Horsepower Vs. Torque (Pompiuses)
I was merely arguing your point that low end torque doesn't make it fast.
What do you consider fast...
Fast off the line?
Fast top-speed?
Other than that, I think it's simply with domestics their gearing is meant for their low torque...so sure, they'll jump, but top speed isn't gonna happen. Which is good, I think I'd trust a honda at 150mph more than a 3000lb beast (unless it's a high-end domestic)
Yes, I've held my engine at high rpms...wasn't on a track, but up in the mtns. Running with a D15B2 (currently) I have to keep it high on the tach to hold with the people I go with. That low end offers nothing useable up there.
What do you consider fast...
Fast off the line?
Fast top-speed?
Other than that, I think it's simply with domestics their gearing is meant for their low torque...so sure, they'll jump, but top speed isn't gonna happen. Which is good, I think I'd trust a honda at 150mph more than a 3000lb beast (unless it's a high-end domestic)
Yes, I've held my engine at high rpms...wasn't on a track, but up in the mtns. Running with a D15B2 (currently) I have to keep it high on the tach to hold with the people I go with. That low end offers nothing useable up there.
03-11-2006, 08:56 AM
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Re: Horsepower Vs. Torque (JokerTypeR)
This thread is turning into another "RULE OF THUMB" thread, because IMO, they don't work. It's just the easy way out.
What are you trying to figure out??? Integrals??? with all these "If torque is at this rpm...blah...blah. and HP is less or more than this or if that!!!...This has shorter gearing, this has longer gearing" !?!?!?!? WTF
plots some tq curves, figure out the hp curve, and do some damn integrals, then you'll see what was designed for you. Compare that to another engine with different flow characteristics.
And then calculate how much average hp you need with your weight in a given distance and time.
What are you trying to figure out??? Integrals??? with all these "If torque is at this rpm...blah...blah. and HP is less or more than this or if that!!!...This has shorter gearing, this has longer gearing" !?!?!?!? WTF
plots some tq curves, figure out the hp curve, and do some damn integrals, then you'll see what was designed for you. Compare that to another engine with different flow characteristics.
And then calculate how much average hp you need with your weight in a given distance and time.
03-11-2006, 09:28 AM
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Re: Horsepower Vs. Torque (daver)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by daver »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">nah, a 300hp honda should be just as fast as a 300hp chevy (even given same weight). If anything, the honda should be faster thanks to shorter gearing (and flatter tq curves from what i've seen). But if racing from a dig, the chevy will likely win everytime ->because its rwd. thats all.
d</TD></TR></TABLE>
weelll, i shouldn't leave it at that, there are rwd hondas too.
There are so many variables to consider, but if driver and traction were not limiting factors, the 300hp chevy (of like drivetrain and weight) should beat the 300hp small cc, n/a honda out of a dig everytime. The honda would not put anywhere near the same tq to the ground that the chevy would in first gear. The honda's gearing advantage doesn't really start until the chevy shifts into second.
d
d</TD></TR></TABLE>
weelll, i shouldn't leave it at that, there are rwd hondas too.
There are so many variables to consider, but if driver and traction were not limiting factors, the 300hp chevy (of like drivetrain and weight) should beat the 300hp small cc, n/a honda out of a dig everytime. The honda would not put anywhere near the same tq to the ground that the chevy would in first gear. The honda's gearing advantage doesn't really start until the chevy shifts into second.
d
03-11-2006, 09:46 AM
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Re: Horsepower Vs. Torque (LsVtec92Hatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There is an "old" saying HP sells motors, TQ wins races. That is mostly true. A 300 BHP 454 chevy VS a 300 BHP Honda, in the same car, will win every time.</TD></TR></TABLE>
This is a terribly flawed argument. I mean, I could argue just as well that you don't need a fast car to drive fast...you need the front left tire: an F1 car with a front left tire will go fast where as an F1 car without the front left tire will not go fast. I mean, great, but the front left tire without the the F1 car will go nowehere.
If the "old saying" is true, then maybe we should have a race like this: A car powered by a torqueless b16b engine, vs a car powered by you and a 5 foot breaker bar, probably good for at least 500lb-ft. Will the "old saying" apply to this race?
This is a terribly flawed argument. I mean, I could argue just as well that you don't need a fast car to drive fast...you need the front left tire: an F1 car with a front left tire will go fast where as an F1 car without the front left tire will not go fast. I mean, great, but the front left tire without the the F1 car will go nowehere.
If the "old saying" is true, then maybe we should have a race like this: A car powered by a torqueless b16b engine, vs a car powered by you and a 5 foot breaker bar, probably good for at least 500lb-ft. Will the "old saying" apply to this race?
03-11-2006, 10:16 AM
#72
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Re: Horsepower Vs. Torque (Lsos)
One thing that I see people posting about gearing is the fact that gearing is factored into the HP/Torque rating.
Torque is the measurement of how much rotational force a wheel is applying. Force=Mass x Acceleration. With shorter gearing, a car will produce more force at the wheel because it will accelerate faster than a car with longer gearing. If you look at the formula, Mass being the same, increasing Acceleration will result in more Force. So a shorter geared transmission should read more torque on a dyno. Correct me if I'm wrong on this and let me hear what you guys think.
So when comparing 300HP to 310HP, it would be safe to assume that gearing was already factored into these HP ratings. So the two big factors of who is going to be faster would be weight and where in the powerband the motor makes it's power.
Torque is the measurement of how much rotational force a wheel is applying. Force=Mass x Acceleration. With shorter gearing, a car will produce more force at the wheel because it will accelerate faster than a car with longer gearing. If you look at the formula, Mass being the same, increasing Acceleration will result in more Force. So a shorter geared transmission should read more torque on a dyno. Correct me if I'm wrong on this and let me hear what you guys think.
So when comparing 300HP to 310HP, it would be safe to assume that gearing was already factored into these HP ratings. So the two big factors of who is going to be faster would be weight and where in the powerband the motor makes it's power.
03-11-2006, 10:26 AM
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Re: Horsepower Vs. Torque (daver)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by daver »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">weelll, i shouldn't leave it at that, there are rwd hondas too.
There are so many variables to consider, but if driver and traction were not limiting factors, the 300hp chevy (of like drivetrain and weight) should beat the 300hp small cc, n/a honda out of a dig everytime. The honda would not put anywhere near the same tq to the ground that the chevy would in first gear. The honda's gearing advantage doesn't really start until the chevy shifts into second.
d</TD></TR></TABLE>
yeah, just comparing comparing rwd vs fwd adds endless variables but logically, what your saying makes sense.
There are so many variables to consider, but if driver and traction were not limiting factors, the 300hp chevy (of like drivetrain and weight) should beat the 300hp small cc, n/a honda out of a dig everytime. The honda would not put anywhere near the same tq to the ground that the chevy would in first gear. The honda's gearing advantage doesn't really start until the chevy shifts into second.
d</TD></TR></TABLE>
yeah, just comparing comparing rwd vs fwd adds endless variables but logically, what your saying makes sense.
03-11-2006, 10:26 AM
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Re: Horsepower Vs. Torque (Lsos)
The reason a larger disp. engine of the BHP is faster is the longer TQ curve of the engine, theirfore more power under the curve when you do change gears. Yes gearing does make a differance, but you are going to have to go to a 6 or 7 speed. Do that with the big motor and you would never be below 295.
03-11-2006, 11:07 AM
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Re: Horsepower Vs. Torque (DonF)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DonF »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The reason a larger disp. engine of the BHP is faster is the longer TQ curve of the engine, theirfore more power under the curve when you do change gears. </TD></TR></TABLE>
dang it donF i disagree. let me dig up some dynos to show just how long and flat, modern honda torque curves are compared to the "cliff like" drop offs of domestics.
d
dang it donF i disagree. let me dig up some dynos to show just how long and flat, modern honda torque curves are compared to the "cliff like" drop offs of domestics.
d