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H22 - Serious issue with balancer shaft!

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Old 04-20-2010, 08:16 PM   #1
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Icon3 H22 - Serious issue with balancer shaft! ***UPDATED!***

I'm currently doing a timing belt job on my brother's H22 swapped Accord. Long story short, in the end of last summer, on his way home from work, the engine was pissing oil, and i mean PISSING!. I do not remember if he drove it again after that, but not long after we parked the car for winter, and it was left untouched.

So, doing this timing belt/seals/... job, i realise the balancer shaft seal has popped out, the front of the engine (under t.-belt cover) is soaked with oil and the balancer shaft has wierd heat marks, as you can see; (i'll take better pictures tomorrow)



When i went to remove the bal.shaft sprocket, i realised the shaft had a huge play, as i'll show you in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rheHbuqldVI

This is definitely abnormal.. Usually there is a very little play, like 1mm, but this...What could be the issue here!?



Also, on a different note, i'm having serious issues trying to get the timing belt crankshaft sprocket, it's literally stuck there. Never had issues with them on F22's and F23's, but on the two H22 i've got, it's definitely not coming off.. :/ (i want to replace the crankshaft oil seal)

Last edited by Nathan007; 04-27-2010 at 12:55 AM.
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Old 04-20-2010, 08:20 PM   #2
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Default Re: H22 - Serious issue with balancer shaft!

just get a kaizen speed kit and delete them
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Old 04-20-2010, 08:29 PM   #3
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Default Re: H22 - Serious issue with balancer shaft!

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just get a kaizen speed kit and delete them
..... and get the engine balanced, might also want to look into buying a good harmonic damper like the one ATI sells
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Old 04-20-2010, 09:03 PM   #4
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Default Re: H22 - Serious issue with balancer shaft!

Looks like you may have an issue with the balance shaft retainer. In order to check that you would have to remove the oil pump housing..... PITA!

Or you can run the engine as is and put a new balance shaft seal in, use an H22/F22 balance shaft seal retainer and see how that works.

Balance shaft seal retainer
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Old 04-20-2010, 09:19 PM   #5
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Default Re: H22 - Serious issue with balancer shaft!

We are currently debating if we take the engine out and see what i can do, if it's possible for me to fix it with what i've got at home, or just leave it there with the retainer and run it without the balancer shafts belt..

I'm just trying to figure out what might be the exact problem with it, kinda hard to say with what i know/can see!!
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Old 04-20-2010, 09:32 PM   #6
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Default Re: H22 - Serious issue with balancer shaft!

That's the thing, the front balance shaft retainer & bolts are behind the oil pump housing. Running it without the belt is an option.
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Old 04-20-2010, 09:57 PM   #7
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Default Re: H22 - Serious issue with balancer shaft!

i was looking at the factory manual, but i cant seem to figure what exactly drives the oil pump. It seems the rear balance shaft (the one with the gears) has something to do with it, but i cant say for sure.

Lets say i dont drive both balancer shafts (totally remove the balancers belt), i wont have issues with oil pump/lubrification?

Thanks alot!
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Old 04-21-2010, 12:10 AM   #8
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Default Re: H22 - Serious issue with balancer shaft!

im dropping h2b in my hatch and my buddies told me i will b ok without the belt. i wana kno same thing about issues w oil pump/lub too. thx alot
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Old 04-21-2010, 04:44 AM   #9
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Default Re: H22 - Serious issue with balancer shaft!

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Originally Posted by Nathan007 View Post
i was looking at the factory manual, but i cant seem to figure what exactly drives the oil pump. It seems the rear balance shaft (the one with the gears) has something to do with it, but i cant say for sure.

Lets say i dont drive both balancer shafts (totally remove the balancers belt), i wont have issues with oil pump/lubrification?

Thanks alot!
oil pump runs off the crank directly.
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Old 04-21-2010, 05:36 AM   #10
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Default Re: H22 - Serious issue with balancer shaft!

With regards to getting the timing drive gear off - I've had this problem very recently too. My gear pullers could not get behind the gear, soaking in WD40 for a week and keep trying to pull off/pull out the key didnt work either. In the end I took the block to a race engineering shop, and it took them just under an hour of heating and using a custom lever they built by welding two bars together etc. to actually finally get it off!! It was almost as if it was rusted on there good and proper, but not sure how coolant/water could get to that spot.

Anyway, goodluck hope it wasn't as a PITA as mine....
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Old 04-21-2010, 08:10 PM   #11
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Default Re: H22 - Serious issue with balancer shaft!

Thanks guys!

For the timing gear, i managed to take it off from the "dummy" h22 laying in my garage, i tried heating it with a propane torch, didnt seem to help. I got fed up and used a small chisel between the back of the gear and the plate behind it, hammered it in a little bit, then got a slightly bigger chisel, did it again. Got enough space to fit my puller and finally got it out. Downside to this method, i totally mess up the plate that goes between the gear and the seal/block...

I'll try to take off the oil pump housing to see the damages extent, it's going to be a PITA with the engine in the car.. :/
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Old 04-21-2010, 09:08 PM   #12
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Default Re: H22 - Serious issue with balancer shaft!

If you putt a seal on it and put the balance shaft belt back on with that play its just gonna walk right back out. Looks like the plate that bolts behind the oil pump has broken off.. It seems on h22 when the oil pressure gets low these are the first to take a hit could be from the seal coming out to start with there notorious for that . I own a shop and have replaced 11 motors this year from that seal coming out thats why honda makes a plate to hold the seal in . I beleive if you buy the plate (its like five dollars) and put a new seal in with the plate and leave the balance shaft belt off you will be fine. i have done it 20 times no problem. The only reason the balance shafts are there is to keep the vibration out of the steering wheel thats it they dont balance the motor or anything . Go to kaiza .com and read up on the balance shaft elimenator kit and you will see what i mean. As long as the seal stays in and dont leak oil you will be fine with the balance shaft belt off . If not your going to have to pull the oil pump off and replace the key way piece that keeps the balance shaft from moving out that far. I see no need for that in this case as long as its not turning it should be fine. my sister nocked a hole in her oil pan kept driving the balance shafts seized up and stalled the motor out i took it to the shop tore the motor down in the car everything looked good except the balanced shafts are seized up so i took the belt off she has been driving for two years since then .
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Old 04-22-2010, 08:29 PM   #13
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Default Re: H22 - Serious issue with balancer shaft!

i'm halfway there!

we'll try to run the car with the balancer shaft, but if it looks too damaged, or isnt easily/safely/worry free repairable, we'll run it without the belt until fall, then take out the engine for a winter rebuild!

Thanks everyone for the help/imput, it's very appreciated!
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Old 04-26-2010, 10:27 PM   #14
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Default Re: H22 - Serious issue with balancer shaft!

Thanks Pirate, that's real nice of you! I guess you got plenty of spare parts laying around with all the builds you've done hehe

I've got a useless H22 collecting dust, so i might be able to get myself out of trouble with it, wich brings me to a very important question;

Is it possible, rightfully mechanically speaking, to use another balancer shaft (from a H22), in this engine, while keeping the bearings that are already inside? Assuming, of course, that there is no excessive play or tightness with the new (well, used) one.

I've had some time to continue the job today, i removed the oil pan and the oil pump cover, to find out that the balancer shaft retainer just wasn't there anymore. The only thing remaining were two broken bolts in the engine block. Luckly, i was able to unscrew them by hand with the few millimeters of them sticking out.

Wierd thing, there weren't any retainer plate, neither bolt heads in the bottom of the oil pan. I checked the oil strainer, the baffle plate, the container in wich i drain the oil, NOTHING! And that retainer plate is heavy, and too big to go trough any opening, like the drain plug. So, where could it have gone?!

Wich brings me to this setup;
My brother bought this engine last summer, he got it installed in his car "as-is", following is bad habit of being too much in a hurry to try it out rather than taking the time to replace the timing belt/seals while the damn thing is out of the car (you can guess he doesnt do much of the work on his car eh!)
He drove the car at least a month or two, putting a few thousand kilometers on the engine. In the meanwhile, nothing was done on it (apart from oil changes and new axles).
Assuming i didnt find the damn retainer, that no one but me took the oil pan off, and that his balancer shaft oil seal popped out a few thousands kilometers after the engine was put it, is it possible that the "evidence" was taken out before the engine was sold to my brother? Is it even possible that this engine was ran, perhaps beaten (the brother does love to rev) all this time with a missing retainer?!

I am 99% sure that the oil pump cover was taken off before, since it was sealed up with black gasket maker (messy job) instead of the usual Honda Bond...

I'll post pics/vids very soon too
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Old 04-27-2010, 06:44 AM   #15
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Default Re: H22 - Serious issue with balancer shaft!

First thing I was going to ask was if it looked like the oil pump housing had been removed before. You answered that in your last sentence. If you can't find any remnants of the plate or bolts inside the pump housing. I would hazard a guess that the pieces had been removed and the $30 parts were obviously never replaced.
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Old 04-27-2010, 10:59 AM   #16
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Default Re: H22 - Serious issue with balancer shaft!

thanks guys

But is it even possible that the engine ran without a retainer, and popped the seal only thousands of hard-rolled kilometers later!?
Sounds abit impossible to me..But i dont see any other possibility!

I'll have to see if i can get the equipment to get the engine out of the car, because i dont see this balancer shaft coming out without dropping/tilting the engine at least 6" lower :/
Until then, i can't tell the condition of the bearings.

And Pirate; i get paid for this, so it's not that much of a problem hehehe.
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Old 04-27-2010, 11:47 AM   #17
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Default Re: H22 - Serious issue with balancer shaft!

Donor parts engine;

Jaydeemm engine, that my brother bought from a JDM shop, ended up being full of gunk and burning oil like a pyro;


Left side is the oil pump cover from his current engine. All the bottom parts (engine block) are as clean. I was very surprised.


Here are the damages caused by the retainer plate/bolts heads.




As you can see, the part that sits on the retainer is really mangled up, and i'm wondering if it can be re-used or if i will need to use the other cover.. :/
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Old 04-28-2010, 08:55 PM   #18
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Default Re: H22 - Serious issue with balancer shaft!

Finally we'll be pulling out the engine next week.
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Old 05-04-2010, 09:15 PM   #19
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Default Re: H22 - Serious issue with balancer shaft!

isnt this a PAIN? i got my h22 started for the first time and oil starts leaking from the main crank, im hoping its just the seal. will i have to take the motor out since im running h2b and have a half inch from the wall? any help would be appreciated
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Old 05-18-2010, 09:27 PM   #20
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Default Re: H22 - Serious issue with balancer shaft!

Hey! It's been a while, i've got some updates and new questions, i'll post pics soon

It wasnt much of a pain taking the engine out, we had the right tools. It was just the preparation that was long (disconnecting everything and making sure i wouldnt forget where this thing goes..)

H2b; When you say main crank, do you mean timing belt side or flywheel side?
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