Chance EG

I've been searching for awhile but can't find an answer to this. Darton makes an 86/87mm sleeve but marks it's intended use as "drag only".

I was under the impression that 86mm would be completely reasonable with LA/GE sleeves for a daily, but now I'm seeing that for the Darton MID they list 85mm as the max. Aiming for reliability here, which is why I'm not using a stroker kit, just trying to bore out the pistons a bit...

Engine will ultimately be built by 4P with LA sleeves, but I don't feel like bothering Luke with an email at this moment.

86x89 B20V possible as a reliable daily/weekend warrior, or should I just nut up and save for a K swap to get the output I want?

bauergold

How much power do you want? I'd look into an h2b setup with an h23a motor.

I wouldnt run 86mm daily. Just go 84.5 or 85mm. Then if you hurt the motor you can bore it out some more. Just my 2 cents.

Chance EG

Aiming for at least 260+WHP. Using a 4.7FD.

I was looking into H2B setups awhile back but wasn't too keen on them... I've made literally about 15+ complete build sheets over the last year with ideas for this car, just really trying to find the perfect setup for what I'm aiming for.

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that a B setup won't get me where I want. I'll look into H23s, and otherwise just nut up and save until I can drop bank on a K24....

KiNGDEE206

iTrader: (1)

spending all that money for b to make K24 powers just suggestions (if stayin all motor atleast)
saw on youtube a k built all motor runnin 9 or 10 seconds
should calculate all the costs of that sleeved b swap and then calculate costs of k24 built


I did a lot of googling stock block w/ bolt on k24a2 makes give or take 220whp-260whp /170-190tQ

heres one quote
ive been dreaming K but the $$ is just not worth it ill cheat and go b turbo lol

heres one 245whp stock block k24 bolt ons
http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=57119

255/200
http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=82177

Chance EG

Haha, trust me, I've run the numbers a TONNE of times. Yeah, an all out sleeved B swap would end up costing within a couple thousand of an all-out K340 crate swap from 4P. The benefit of going the B route though was I would have been able to do an ITR trans swap with a stock B20B and had something fun to putt around in for however long it took me to save for the built B. If I go the K route I'd have a bit more cost upfront. I'm also trying to avoid buying parts that I won't be using in my final build (like buying cheap transmissions or other parts for the base swap that I'd need to resell once I get the things I actually want).

I think I could do an Accord K24 budget swap with a 5sp for around $4400 with minimal "waste" parts, but I'm still looking into it. As Bauer said as well, I'm going to look at H series a bit more as well.

KiNGDEE206

iTrader: (1)

where im from i can piece together a k24a2 complete swap w/ k20a2 transmission for give or take $5000-6000
focusing on Used price sales on the internet
like mounts
harness
header
minor miscs

K24a2 longblock where im from costs give or take $600-1000
k20a2 Tranny costs give or take $600-900
kpro used over here costs give or take $500-650

i just cant justify spending $5000-7500 on a civic just yet.
ive heard H series doesnt have the bolt on response as K swaps

Chance EG

Yeah, those are roughly the prices I'm getting too with an 04-05 TSX engine.

The other two major downsides to the H series are a much smaller aftermarket than the B/K series, and for some reason (can't recall why) they weigh I think about 60lb more fully dressed than B/K.

Also require a bit more work with the axles and such for the swap into an EG/EK chassis, but that can all be managed. I intend to retain AC and PS too though, so I'd have to look into that as well.

Edit: Also H would have the added cost of the adapter plate for the ITR trans. I'm sure that adds at least (a bit) of weight too.

2LEM1

iTrader: (1)

Why don't you buy a cheap daily driver so you can actually build a car without sacrifices.

bauergold

H23a is the way. They're only $600-650 for the motor itself. 260+whp on the stock bottom end is possible with a good head, cams, intake.
B-series doesn't even compare in terms of cost.

FlewByU352

Such silly arguments here children. A K24A2 even with bolt ons and a tune will typically make more power all motor than a built B series because it is 400cc's larger and a better designed platform. Reasons why the K series sucks: the transmission. And before anyone tries to argue any K series is better, check yourself before you wreck yourself. There's lots of **** K series, predominately the CRV motors, and the Accord motors unless you're starting from scratch using a bare block to build everything.

Chance EG

After pricing everything out for a basic H2B swap done properly it's coming out to be about $1500 less than my "basic" K24 swap idea ($4550 vs. $6100). K swap would have the added benefit of a 6sp & LSD right off the bat (and the PNN4 trans I would stick with long term anyway) as well as just being a newer engine with better placement in the bay, axle alignment, gas mileage, and a larger aftermarket. H23 with the chipped P28 would be what I keep long term.

Once again, I'm weighing the starting cost along with what parts I'd eventually upgrade/replace and need to resell, in addition to the long term upgrades I want.

Guess I just need to decide if the benefits are worth it.

H23B Build:
K24 Swap:

Quote:

Engine:

Chance EG

Thinking of going the H23 route. Just to confirm, are H23 DOHC VTEC Bluetop head internals (cams, valves, springs, retainers, etc) backwards compatible with H22? According to this source it is, but I definitely want to make sure.

Explicit Speed Performance

Only other thing with the H I'm a bit worried about is I can't seem to find many piston options for the H23, and I know the H22 aren't ideal and wouldn't work properly.

vtecmaster85

with the h23, i wouldnt use 4.7 final. you'll have the torque to optimize the gearing of the GSR transmission.

Chance EG

I've looked at the gear/speed tables on Mfactory a lot using my tire dimensions, I'd be ok with the 4.7 final assuming I can get at least an 8500+ redline which should be no problem once it's built.

Also looks like the Bluetop cylinder head should be no more difficult to find parts for than an H22. Only other thing I'm trying to figure out are the pistons, looks like those may have to be custom... Tha hell...

KiNGDEE206

iTrader: (1)

ive read that h22a is 87mm bore
and h23a is 87mm bore
i believed i read that they have interchangeable pistons
E:
https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-...crank-2900317/

Chance EG

Based on that and what I've been reading it's possible, just requires some math to figure out what the resulting CR would be with the higher stroke and making sure the P2V clearances check out. Kinda wonder what getting a custom piston would cost or be like, with the pin possibly moved up slightly so the piston won't stick up out of the block minus the compression dome.

Seems like this should all be able to work out with some forethought, I'll talk to Luke/4P when I'm ready and figure out the best course of action. I'm sure they'd know what to do.

pogeeboy27

iTrader: (3)

Not sure if you've seen it but 4Piston built a bad *** H22 for one of their customers.

https://honda-tech.com/forums/all-mo...inder-3269221/

Chance EG

That'd be really cool to see if the links hadn't already 404'd lol

Nice to know they have solid background with the H's though!

Chance EG

Looks like it might not be possible to run AC in an H2B swapped EG....

https://honda-tech.com/forums/hybrid...-done-3042110/

The alternator would need to be relocated to clear the frame rail, which would take the place of the AC compressor. And apparently the above Innovative kit only works with EKs? Is this due to spatial constraints in the bay (probably), or is it similar to the Hybrid Racing AC kit where something else like the EK condensor would be needed?

So basically the alternator would force me to remove the compressor from it's stock location, and the other relocate kit to move the compressor wouldn't work with my chassis.

97civixlx

Sorry. A bit off topic. But my suggestion is if you want a car with 250~whp and not spend an arm and a leg you could always look into a jswap.

I looked into b, f, h, and ultimately decided on j because it's cheaper, similar power, and all oem.

But to each their own. Good luck with your build!

Jimi Hondrix

How much did the J swap cost you. According to this it's around 5K: Honda J-Series - Engine Swap - Honda Tuning Magazine

97civixlx

To be honest, I haven't spent any money yet because I'm stingy and don't want to buy anything that I'll end up not using or regret buying.

That 5k price only if you buy stuff at their "retail" price. If I was you, I'd look for deals since that's exactly what I'm doing.

A generic list would look like this:

J engine from junkyard ~300
6speed accord no LSD ~300-500
Hasport mounts~ 550
J swap axles~300
Custom harness~550
Stock ecu~150

Tota​​​​​​l: 2150-2450

This covers like 90% of your swap. From what I've read, you can also reuse some of your civics radiator hoses as well as keep a/c no problem. Also, because you're putting this into an eg, you don't have to change out your steering rack because hasport mounts only set up correct if you have eg steering rack.

The swap shouldn't be any harder to do than a k swap. In fact, it's probably easier. The only thing you'll have to decide is if you want a big *** hole in your hood, or if you wanna keep your hood and not lower your car. I'm staying near stock height because I ain't about that stance life. Oil pan sits pretty low, a couple inches, if you choose what I am, but it's no different i suppose than someone who slams their car. For a DD, this shouldn't be a problem though.

k20z1ej1

Some things people dont tell you about H2b that i found out the hard way:

1: You have to grind off A LOT of the engine block for intermediate shaft clearance. Way more than i was comfortable with. I dont think anyone has had issues with hitting an oil passage, but just a heads up.

2: It isnt required, but certainly recommended to do a balance shaft delete. The engine will not clear the frame rail with the shafts still in the engine. So go ahead and plan on getting the parts for that. I just coughed up the money and got a KS tuned oil pump/BS delete kit.

3: Its ideal to convert to manual timing belt tensioner. Again, not required, highly recommended.

4: there are other things that i cant recall because its been 5 or 6 years, but in the end i wished i had built a B20V or done a k swap. H2b is more trouble than its worth unless your going for 280-300 whp in my opinion. At that level, its very expensive to build a b series, and even though you can get there more easily with a k24, a h23 can get there for less money. Beyond 300 whp, just go k series. Just my opinion

EDIT: 5: You also need to buy (or make) a single row crank pulley

Also, to answer your earlier question, H23 parts are interchangeable with h22.

Jimi Hondrix

Thanks for that list. I have a 95 Civic EX coupe with a JDM B20B swap (previous owner). Pretty happy with the B20B however, if/when the time comes to upgrade I am considering a J-swap. The torque spec acrosss the powerband is as much or more important to me than the HP and one reason why a B20 is fun to drive.

Chance EG

Thanks for all the input everyone. Unfortunately I am not/will not consider a J swap for this application, although I've seen some really interesting swaps that utilize that powerplant.

I've come to the conclusion that all motor B won't get me the output I want, H2B won't let me run AC so won't suite me for a Texas daily, and any K swap just has too much cost upfront for me at the moment.

Looking into B turbo builds now again. Just going to keep the power reasonable and try to keep EGT/Bay heat as low as possible.