89si-rex

As title states I'm looking into advantage/disadvantages if each. My build is a 84x87.2 darton sleeved build, 13.1:1 compression, with pro2 cams. I plan on revving motor 9,000+ rpm depending where my tuner tells me I make power to, will an oem crank pulley be sufficient? Is the ati/fluidampr style safer for high rpm? Thanks for input

RagingAngel

I have NO experience with the Fluidampr but certain people have had issues with it.

I have used a dissected OEM one (PS rib chopped off)

and have an ATi on order.

All my cars make well UNDER 250whp but I use them mainly for lapping days where sessions vary from 20-40 minutes each x 3-6 sessions per day.

I shift anywhere from 7,000 to 8,000 depending on the motor.

https://honda-tech.com/forums/showth...ight=fluidampr
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35867

Chugger

I'm wondering too which one to get. I have a crx with a bseries and have read that the race versions of each will hit the traction bars on ef chassis.

0Fluidampr-Tech

My name is Ivan and I work for Fluidampr. I am here to provide FACTS and to answer any questions you have about torsional vibrations or our product.

We have done testing with many different applications and I am confident if you put our damper to the test you will see the results. We have seen gains anywhere from 5-15 h.p. over competitors product. This is just one benefit from using a high quality damper. Others include reduced bearing wear, improved valve timing, and overall a more efficient running engine. The FACT is ATI and Fluidampr are premier dampers and are so far ahead of the rest of the pack when it comes to torsional vibration control, it is not even close.

I will not sit here and put down a competitors product so that you will purchase ours. In fact I will even state that if you are to purchase a rubber damper, ATI is the best. However, I personally travel the country working with engine builders and our engineers measuring torsional vibrations and testing many damper versions and I see the results using Fluidampr. The other key benefit of a Fluidampr is that it will not wear out and will last the life of your engine saving you costly money on rebuilds that are required with rubber dampers.

I also know that there are many people on the internet who put down a manufacturers product without any knowledge of that product. In our case it is always a guy who heard from someone... never any proof that a problem is directly related to a Fluidampr. We are an OEM supplier and have been manufacturing viscous dampers 100% in the USA since 1946. Viscous dampers can be found OEM on over 90% of heavy duty diesel engines and on super cars such as the Lamborghini Gallardo, Audi R8, Ford GT 40, Dodge Cummins, etc. Would these OEM's use viscous dampers if there was a problem... NO! The only reason they are not used OEM on most daily drivers is from a cost standpoint.

Again, please feel free to ask any questions and I will gladly do my best to respond as soon as possible.

You may also reach me by calling 716-592-1000.

Thank you,
Ivan
ivan.snyder@fluidampr.com

bks84

iTrader: (9)

Ive ran 3 Fluidampr's on my motors (1 LSVTEC, 2 B20VTEC's) and never had any issues, aside from the hardware rusting (6 allen bolts that hold the power steering pulley to the damper it self). I just replaced them with SS bolts from Fastenal and solved that issue.


RagingAngel what issues did they supposedly have?

Uncle Dave

Nice to see company's post about there products,before and after sales FACTS are very important in this community and what better way than the company to post directly in a forum.

F22Master

Any dyno graphs? Could you go into detail on HOW an engine damper increases HP? How poorly balanced was the engine to gain 15hp from a damper?

89si-rex

We'll Ivan you just sold me on it, I really do appreciate you taking your time and giving me information, great customer service is the number one thing I look for when choosing a product, it's how I was sold on 4piston cylinder head, thank you and will be purchasing one tomorrow.

0Fluidampr-Tech

bks84- Thank you for the feedback. At what point after installing the damper did you notice rusting on the hardware? I am happy to provide this feedback to our engineering department. We likely do not use SS hardware to keep the cost of the unit down.

Uncle Dave, Thank you. It is one of our goals as a manufacturer to get more involved with forum activity.

F22- Please keep in mind I said 5-15 h.p. Not every application or build will see the exact same results. There are too many factors that play into what that exact number will be. Although through all of the testing we perform there is consistency with h.p. and torque gains. To be clear a damper does not make more power a good damper will free up lost h.p. due to reduced parasitic drag and overall a more efficient running engine. Torsional vibrations rob power. Find a way to reduce or control these vibrations and you will have power gains. Poor balance is not necessarily the problem. Most engines are internally balanced these days which means balancing likely has not much to do with the problem (although a poor balance job will create additional problems). Our testing was performed on a well balanced race engine. No matter how well balanced and engine is there are still torsional vibrations present. On an internally balanced engine the damper plays no role in balancing the rotating assembly, the dampers only job is to reduce the amount of crankshaft twist which the greater the twist the greater the vibration being put back into the engine. Every time the engine fires the force causes the crankshaft to twist ahead of its natural rotation and then it rebounds back. This motion is what causes torsional vibration. On an externally balanced engine there are counterweights that are added to the damper and/or flywheel/flexplate which does play a role in balancing. I hope this explanation helps with the understanding of a dampers role.

The following is a link to our most recent testing with our newest damper for the Honda S2000 application. We were approached by a company who was not happy with our competitors product and service and asked us to design a damper for their S2000 racing engines.

http://www.fluidampr.com/assets/docu...HondaS2000.pdf

89si-rex- You are welcome and again feel free to contact me directly if needed. We are a 100% made in the U.S.A. family owned business who takes great pride in our customer service. You will not find any better in the industry. I look at this way, I actually get paid to do this... it's a rough life

bks84

iTrader: (9)

I noticed the rust on the hardware after at just a week. It was installed on a daily driven car, I wasn't a bit shocked (or upset) that they rusted. They didn't seize our cause any other issues either

95skunkedgsr

Glad to see tech from a company and answers ppl can learn from instead of a sale add .. nice to See

hondaprofessor

I'm looking into purchasing a fluidampr for a rsx\k20 and i was reading on fluidampr website it states "Fluidampr automatically adapts to your modifications, then continuously self-tunes in real time to optimum damping at both peak levels and across a broad changing frequency range." so my question is if you use this on one engine and then swap it to another is there a danger in doing so or will it automatically re-learn for the new engine? just asking as we sometimes rebuild engine and swap parts around at our shop from one engine to the next so is there any danger in getting a used one and whats the warranty on a new one? Thanks

2LEM1

iTrader: (1)

I'll just leave this here.

Laskey Racing Online Store

DC-2uned

Even the competition has to give credit where it is due

This^


"Extensive dyno and on-the-track testing by ATI, GM, Toyota Racing Development (TRD), and all of the NASCAR engine builders have proven the Super Damper® far superior to all other designs, and is trusted by 100% of NASCAR engine builders and reputable engine builders around the world!"

About fluid type dampers(like Fluidampr):
"Viscous fluid dampers are sealed and you don’t know you have problem until it’s too late. The inertia weight can become fixed (locked) by bearing failure or, more commonly, from the silicone turning to a solid mass. Your first warning of damper failure will probably be a broken crankshaft resulting in the replacement of your damper AND the engine. Viscous fluid dampers are not only ineffective but are actually detrimental at high RPM's."

Those quotes are from ATI's site at: ATI Damper Technology but it is all facts

A lot of the top guys in Drag Racing and Road Racing run ATI but, more importantly all the guys in NASCAR run ATI. Now while I might not be a fan of NASCAR(more of an F1, Indy, GT guy), I can definitely appreciate how great their motors are built. The fact that they can keep those big V8's (which recently went from 7.0L to 5.8L because of hp reduction, not reliability) spinning for hours on end up to 9000rpm should speak volumes on how well balanced they are built and stay.

Yes, you can debate prices and theory for hours of ATI vs Fluid vs OEM or you can buy the proven best from the get go.

I vote ATI.

0Fluidampr-Tech

Ivan from Fluidampr again,

I need to set some misguiding facts straight as it appears someone strongly supports ATI, which is fine, remember I stated earlier that ATI is the best rubber damper out there, however, the testing I have done and provided the dyno charts (from a Honda engine) above shows the Fluidampr superior to the ATI.

Fact 1) Fluidampr internal inertia ring will not become locked up. Just reread the statement above and break it down:

"The inertia weight can become fixed (locked) by bearing failure or, more commonly, from the silicone turning to a solid mass" and "Your first warning of damper failure will probably be a broken crankshaft resulting in the replacement of your damper AND the engine."

The key word "can". Sure and the world CAN come to an end today. I have been manufacturing Fluidampr dampers for over 12 years and working with the sales and technical team another 5. I have yet to see one damper in a performance application where the internal inertia ring has become locked up. Furthermore, the latter statement about broken crankshafts is a scare tactic from a competitor. The key word here is "probably". Seriously, PROBABLY? These words belong with maybe, might, would, could, should, etc. I mean c'mon man! These are words that are used when you have no proof and are just putting something out there. There are stories out there (we suspect started by our competitors), however, not one person has ever been able to provide any factual evidence to me when I called them out. It is always "well I heard from a friend" or "some guy on the internet said this". We have been manufacturing dampers since 1946. Would our dampers continue to have the success we have as an OEM and aftermarket supplier if they lock up and break crankshafts?

Fact 2) ATI is used in Nascar for one purpose... to last 4 hours at high RPM. This constant turning of high RPM literally cooks the damper. I have personally worked with Nascar engineers and understand the process. The fact is that Nascar rebuilds their ATI dampers after every single race. Every single race! Furthermore, the the most recent top Nascar team I worked with did not even use ATI replacement elastomeric bands. They use their own proprietary elastomeric bands that they have studied countless times over to ensure proper tuning and longevity at 9000 RPMs.

My recommendation is to research the costs associated with rebuilding an ATI damper. Fluidampr's viscous design does not require rebuilds.

Again, both dampers are great products 100% Made in the USA and I am providing facts not opinions based on my experience.

2LEM1

iTrader: (1)

I am interested in hearing about the claim that above 7000 RPMs the fluid unit stops being effective. Is there any truth to that? If so, some of our motors regularly see 9500 RPMs.

0Fluidampr-Tech

In short, the claim that Fluidamprs are not effective above 7,000 RPM is completely false. Were you able to review the s2000 dyno comparison in an earlier post I had made? This was actual testing performed 2 years ago on a Honda S2000 application in which back to back to back dyno pulls were performed on Fluidampr, ATI and OEM units under the same conditions on the same day where the engine was driven to nearly 10,000 RPM's.

We have many customers push their Fluidampr's past 9000 RPM's.

The chart you have posted from Laskey is one that ATI posted many years ago for a V8 Chevy Small Block engine which is completely different in comparison to a Honda engine. Also, please note the size of the dampers used. ATI refers to a poorly sized Fluidampr. Well that is because they chose to use a heavier 8” Fluidampr vs. using a comparable 6 ¼” or 7 ¼” Fluidampr.

Let me ask this... are you familiar with torsional vibration and the difference between peak to peak torsional twist from .4 degrees to 1.6 degrees. Basically, what does this translate to? This test only shows torsional twist and does not provide any information as to what this actually means. On that particular engine set-up the 1.6 degree of twist that our competitor claims to be true (which I have not ever been able to confirm testing or seen any other testing that reflects this) may not have any detrimental effects on that engine. Again, this is only known when shown in comparison to say h.p. and torque curves or by running testing in relation to other engine components, i.e. what effects are the engine bearings feeling when the crank reaches 1.6 degrees of twist. What I am trying to say is that unless you know what exactly the effects are of torsional twist for a particular application, this chart represents absolutely nothing. If the average reader does not know what is being affected by a difference of .4 degrees to 1.6 degrees, what difference does the amplitude of twist matter?

The ATI chart also leads the reader to believe that detrimental vibrations occur on a SBC engine at over 7000 rpm. This is not necessarily accurate. Depending on the mass elastics of a SBC engine, the worst orders of vibration will likely occur in the 4000 to 7000 rpm range with or without any damper installed. With that being said, according to this chart, Fluidampr outperforms the ATI unit in the majority of the detrimental area of the SBC engine. In addition, below I have attached recent testing we performed on a 571 c.i. BBC reaching nearly 1100 h.p. where we compared similar size dampers in a back to back dyno testing session on the same day. You can see where there are clearly less torsional spikes with the Fluidampr unit which results in a much smoother overall dyno pull and ultimately more h.p. at peak.

https://honda-tech.com/attachment.ph...1&d=1438715704

https://honda-tech.com/attachment.ph...1&d=1438715704

https://honda-tech.com/attachment.ph...1&d=1438715704

Furthermore, the chart clearly states in the bubble that the ATI unit was tuned for high RPM applications and for lower RPM tuning to contact a sales technician. What ATI is saying is that not every engine setup will work with a particular ATI damper. So basically if you are working with a daily driver engine and have a damper designed for low RPM you will need to contact ATI for a high RPM engine. Therefore, if you decide you want to run your daily driver at the track you will need to change dampers? This is where the beauty of Fluidampr shines. Being a viscous damper, Fluidampr is able to self-tune to the changing bandwidth of harmonics across the entire RPM range vs. a narrow predetermined bandwidth found with elastomeric based dampers. They are only functioning optimally when the trouble area of harmonics are within the frequency determined by the durometer of the elastomeric material used.

I hope this helps with the understanding of the difference between the dampers.

2LEM1

iTrader: (1)

OK, this thread just got interesting, I love techy ****.

I'm at work so I can't really spend any time on it, but I will post when I get home after work. I must say though, I'm definitely interested to hear more.

I may just have to switch over to a Fluidampr.

the_unknown

Fluidampr man bustin' out the sciences... +1 for meaningful tech thread...

0Fluidampr-Tech

hondaprofessor,

I just realized, I never directly answered your question.

In short, yes you will be able to swap the damper onto a new engine without worry that it will adapt to a different set-up or performance mods.

A viscous damper is continuously tuning real time to the harmonics of the engine.

Please let me know if you have any other questions.

I am also available by email at ivan@fluidampr.com

Thank you,
Ivan

wunfstgsr

Thinking of biting the gun on the fluid damper, my A.C idle pulley which tentions my supercharger belt snapped off ripping off all my belts and chipped my B20 cranks pulley. I will loose boost if i drop from the B20 pulley but i think theres lots of advantages if i were to upgrade intead of replace the oem unit. And from the looks of this thread the Fluid unit is better than the ATI unit.

ryanplayjoint

The ati damper has an interference type install on the crank and requires a puller to take off. Not sure about the fluid damper. It can make it a bit of pita.

PyroProblem

It seems to me an interference fit between the crank and damper would do a better job at absorbing harmonics than a pulley/damper that just slips into the crank.
Getting paranoid about your ctr pulley ryanplayjoint?

Garrett

i'm confused when I see this

Laskey Racing Online Store

0Fluidampr-Tech

Hi Garrett,

My name is Ivan and I am with Fluidampr. Did you read posts #15 and #17 where I address the Laskey chart?

Please feel free to reach out to me directly at ivan@fluidampr.com if there are any questions regarding vibrations or dampers that I can help with.

-Ivan