Flux

Just watched the broadcast of the Speedvision Touring Car Championship from Portland. The ITRs were completely outclassed on this course by the higher hp BMWs...

One interesting note however, apparently Taz Harvey's Honda is now being tuned by Skunk2 and finished 2nd... now that is a big improvement. Very impressive.

Conechaser

Taz is using a JUN motor last i heard

Big Phat R

They should have stayed on R compounds.

GRM Scott

Does anyone know what the trophy weight rules are? How much weight was Kleinubing running this race? If i recall correctly, it was +120 lbs. at sears point, where he finished third. Do they constantly recalculate the addition or subtraction of weight based on race placement, or is it just the sactioning bodies' arbitrary decision? Too bad i just got back to pittsburgh, no speedvision here (but i saw F1 last monday, so that was nice)

Cosworth

I notice it too. ITR's competition is slowly but surely catching up to RTR-ITRs. It's just a progression I think. Old cars get outclassed by newer cars. (I know that E36 BMW's aren't new, but they get weight break... however E46 BMW's are getting faster and faster in each of the last few races.) All I know is Acura is slowly losing it's position in the podium... just look at aging NSX in GT class.

Qikcivic

it cuz the ITR lacks a bit of torque compared to the e36's however!!!! the tradoff is being more adgile at some track(liek taz harvey's SI), but suxs at other tracks where top speed is a factor, BTW is RTR still in the points lead? All I know is that next when they switch to the RSX Type-S, it going to be a different story but only time will tell

Gansan

I hope you realize that the "progression" is actually an illusion as Mitch Wright and friends keep adding weight/reducing horsepower of the fastest cars. The NSX lost 1000 rpm of rev range (9000 -> 8000), went from around 8 psi down to 5 psi and gained a bunch of weight in the past several races. Similar things have been happening to the Integras.

There are some people who seem to complain bitterly when one brand or another wins all the time, so the SCCA tries to let everyone at least have some hope of winning.

It's understandable, but I bet it's frustrating for the teams with the penalized cars!

jmb

this topic was discussed in another thread a couple of weeks ago. one reason why the Realtime Type Rs were so far behind at PIR was due to the last minute power-robbing changes they had to make to meet the noise restrictions (105db). you'll find more somewhere in the archives. almost all the cars at PIR had to make changes to meet the noise limit. apparently the Rs ended up getting affected much more than some of the other cars.

a few of the cars were even black-flagged and lost their qualifying times because they kept creeping above the limit. If you watched the start of the race, you would have heard Taz Harvey talk abut his little episode with the lost tow truck driver and getting a muffler - with a lifetime guarantee! - from some local shop by PIR so his Si could meet the noise limit. things will be different in the next races at Laguna Seca and Road Atlanta because AFAIK neither of those two tracks will have the noise limits that Portland had.

on the illusion of progression, Glen is right - weight is added to some cars after each race, with more going to the top cars. the intent is to equalize the cars and make the series more competitive. so far it has been quite successful. if the same cars won all the time, people would lose interest in the series. you can get all the gory details at http://www.speedvisionwc.com along with tech info (VTS) of many of the cars that run in the series.

jmb

Hracer

I really hope the noise restriction rules are what slowed the ITRs down so much and not so much the rule book. Running an ITR in Touring right now is extremely unappealing. This is because the ITR itself is penalized a great deal simply due to the fact that Realtime with their huge budget have been so good to adapt and compensate the power and weight penalties that the ITR keeps receiving. An ITR prepped and run by any other team/individual will inevitably result in a back of the back performance because of the lack of funds to go around the rules to the degree that Realtime has been able to do. Realtime is the only reason why we still see any ITRs anywhere near the front. No other team is willing to take the great challenge imposed by the rule book in trying to make an under-powered car running with weight penalties be competitive. The 325/328 BMWs are on the other hand quite appealing - notice the large number of teams running them.

Taz's Civic right now is still running pretty much "pure" since it is still new and relatively still unaffected by the rules. I was very happy to see a non-BMW car finish so well in the top 10! I really hope he will get the Civic's first win soon. On another note, the Proteges are doing very well. This is a direct factor of Mazda's financial support to the team. Without those resources, they wouldn't be anywhere near the front. Those Proteges are very fast right now and I think they could even be superior to the ITRs. Did you see them pass the Realtime ITRs on the straights? Oh wait, even Roger Foo's Civic seemed to be pulling away from the ITRs on the straights.


[Modified by Hracer, 9:45 PM 8/25/2001]

timberwulf

HRacer - My understanding is that the weight restrictions aren't by model of car, but rather by how much your particular car is winning.

Kleinubing was running +130lbs, but the other Realtime cars were running less - I think one was only running +30.

On the flip side, I don't know if engine mods (like the reduction of boost and redline on the NSX) are automatically placed on all models of a car, or just the guy who keeps winning...

On a side note, I was really glad that Cunningham wasn't black flagged for noise after that...was it a F-Body?.....other car pounded him in the rear. For those who didn't get to watch, the impact knocked the NSX's exhaust muffler loose, causing it to drag on the ground, and it looked for a short while like he was going to get flagged for it.

Personally, I think if PIR wants to continue with this noise restriction crap, that they should not host another cup event. That was crap, and especially that the teams didn't even know the extent or details of the restriction until they arrived on the track. I thought the entire noise rule smacked of all of the chit that is going down in Cali.


[Modified by timberwulf, 10:47 PM 8/25/2001]

jmb

the weight additions are given to a particular driver. it is called REWARDS weight and is given to the podium finishers of each race (40, 30 & 20 lbs). if a car with REWARDS weight finishes out of the top four some of the weight is taken off. Because of Kleinubing's past success, he has 130lbs extra on his car. the rest of the Realtime cars (or the other type Rs for that matter) aren't running extra weight. ICBW but only Kleinubing and Plumb have finished in the top three this year.

the engine mods to slow a car down are given to all of that type of car. if a car is determined to be too fast, they will all be slowed down. last year and the year before the Rs were progressively slowed down with various rule changes. that gave the BMW 328 a chance to start winning races, and then those were slowed down too. without all these rule changes, the guys in the Civics & the Mazdas wouldn't be able to compete.

all the teams knew of the Portland 105dBA noise restriction. it wasn't a surprise that was handed down to them at the last minute. the announcement was made on May 10th. they just didn't get around to tuning their cars for it until they got there, and as we saw, some paid dearly for it. what sucked though was that some of the other series (eg ALMS) who were also racing at PIR didn't have the same noise restrictions. that made no sense.

jmb

Hracer

You guys are right - reward weight is the weight added to the top running cars and is what is displayed on the windshield.

I was referring to the rulebook weight. This is the lowest legal weight a particular car model can run. The reward weight is in addition to the rulebook weight. The baseline weight for the ITR now is quite heavier than what they were allowed to run a couple of years ago. They even made an increase in baseline weight this season after a couple of rounds I believe. This weight is written in the rulebook and applies to everybody. All BMW 328s have to run a certain weight, all 325 BMWs run a lighter weight, ITR, Proteges, etc all have a specific weight. At the end of every race, the top finishers run over scales and whoever is under the rulebook weight, is disqualified. This baseline weight is what I was referring to. It has been increased for the ITRs lately and along with the mods restricting their power are what make the ITR not so favorable any more to run in this series.

105 bBA was imposed by the SCCA, not by the raceway. The ALMS is not sanctioned by the SCCA, therefore they were unaffected by the rule. 105 dBA is not even that bad since we (scca club racers) are limited at 103 dBA. Our CRXs are running in the 94-98 range (with a resonator) and even so they are quite loud.


[Modified by Hracer, 9:29 PM 8/26/2001]

ghettoracer

Welp, last you heard was out of date. Both Taz Harvey and Roger Foo are running engines built by Omniman of Skunk2.

As far as RTR ITR's falling behind, I'm sure pretty soon SCCA will adjust the ruling some if this continues. They do have to try to keep everyone happy. When RTR ITR's were dominating, they gave the smaller B16A's a lot more freedom.

slowerthanu

Does anyone know were to get specific rules for this particular class?

jmb

slowerthanu, you'll find all the rules for the World Challenge series at http://www.speedvisionwc.com Click on the Competitors and Series facts links.

the press release with the PIR noise notice is here http://www.speedvisionwc.com/competi...1-wc-tb-10.pdf according to the PR, the SCCA Pro Racing rules allow 107dB. The state of Oregon and their strange rules limit noise from most race cars to 105dB. I guess they must be pretty sensitive to noise in Oregon.

with the current (apparent) uncompetitiveness of the Type R, hopefully the base weight for the R will be decreased to make it easier for the guys racing the R. unfortunately the season is virtually over so we won't see anything till next year. Hracer/Alex, the next two races are right in your backyard - are you going to be at RA?

jmb

Hracer

Yup, I'll be at R.A. I'm crewing for a BMW GT team this year, which is great considering the significant ticket prices! (last year I was with Hikari Racing)

Blue Liquid

Rodger's car seemed to have something wrong with it at one point in the race, becuase he was pulled hard by his own team mate and by Foo's Civic, which shouldn't have happened. Othr than that, something has to change, because the points leader was running something like 13th at that race. Plus, did you guys see Kleinubing get left in the dust on the straights? What the hell?