How Korbach Frame Lock Structurally Works
09-14-2004, 09:57 AM
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How Korbach Frame Lock Structurally Works
Based on the pictures and description of the product, and my limited knowledge on frames, this thread is to address how I understand the Korbach frame lock works. This is strictly "theory" from a structural point of view and do not necessarily translate into the actual increase/decrease in performance because of variables like materials, connections and installation. It should help others to understand the logic behind this “hot item” and help make the judgement themselves.
In the pictures below, the front rails and the bumper support resemble a "frame" when look down directly from top. In a stock car, the bumper support is bolted to the tip of the rails. With no welding or other obvious connection mechanism, it can be considered as a pin connection at both ends, allowing rotation when force is applied. During cornering, lateral load applied to the frame would yield this kind of movement:
The idea of the frame lock is to eliminate this pin connection for the purpose of reducing deflection at the tip of the rails, and transfer it into bending in the bumper support. By doing so, the movement of the frame would be similar to the picture below when lateral load is applied:
It could be a legit claim that the result from installing this lock is immediate and obvious, as many have already attested with first hand experience. However, here comes my concerns (which had already been brought up in an earlier thread):
1. The front rails are box members made up of thin gauge sheet metal. The frame lock connects to the wall of the box member with a single bolt (or 2). Sheet metal with holes drilled in it, and with bending induced that was not originally accounted for from the factory, the metal may fatigue after a period of time (note: there’s no backing plate to reinforce the wall). The wall of the rails might bulge out/in or deform and the bolts come loose.
2. Loads are reversible. Lateral load from the rails can be transferred into the bumper support thru the fixed connection at the ends, by the same token, load from front impact in the bumper support can also be transferred into the rails. When a collision occur on a stock car, the bumper support is designed to absorb the impact and buckle as shown in pic below. The pin connection at both ends allow the bumper support to take majority of the load and leave the rails intact. It is assuming that the impact was applied directly on the bumper support and was minor to medium, not enough to crush the whole front end:
However, when the end connections becomes fixed by installing the frame lock, the pattern of the frame would look like this in the event of a frontal collision:
By having a rigid connection, loads will be transferred into the rails regardless of size. Therefore, you are risking the damage on the front rails even when the frontal impact is not substantial.
This post is strictly for discussion purpose only. I'm not getting paid for advertising or bashing the product. Just wanna point out the logic behind it. HTH.
In the pictures below, the front rails and the bumper support resemble a "frame" when look down directly from top. In a stock car, the bumper support is bolted to the tip of the rails. With no welding or other obvious connection mechanism, it can be considered as a pin connection at both ends, allowing rotation when force is applied. During cornering, lateral load applied to the frame would yield this kind of movement:
The idea of the frame lock is to eliminate this pin connection for the purpose of reducing deflection at the tip of the rails, and transfer it into bending in the bumper support. By doing so, the movement of the frame would be similar to the picture below when lateral load is applied:
It could be a legit claim that the result from installing this lock is immediate and obvious, as many have already attested with first hand experience. However, here comes my concerns (which had already been brought up in an earlier thread):
1. The front rails are box members made up of thin gauge sheet metal. The frame lock connects to the wall of the box member with a single bolt (or 2). Sheet metal with holes drilled in it, and with bending induced that was not originally accounted for from the factory, the metal may fatigue after a period of time (note: there’s no backing plate to reinforce the wall). The wall of the rails might bulge out/in or deform and the bolts come loose.
2. Loads are reversible. Lateral load from the rails can be transferred into the bumper support thru the fixed connection at the ends, by the same token, load from front impact in the bumper support can also be transferred into the rails. When a collision occur on a stock car, the bumper support is designed to absorb the impact and buckle as shown in pic below. The pin connection at both ends allow the bumper support to take majority of the load and leave the rails intact. It is assuming that the impact was applied directly on the bumper support and was minor to medium, not enough to crush the whole front end:
However, when the end connections becomes fixed by installing the frame lock, the pattern of the frame would look like this in the event of a frontal collision:
By having a rigid connection, loads will be transferred into the rails regardless of size. Therefore, you are risking the damage on the front rails even when the frontal impact is not substantial.
This post is strictly for discussion purpose only. I'm not getting paid for advertising or bashing the product. Just wanna point out the logic behind it. HTH.
09-14-2004, 10:17 AM
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Re: How Korbach Frame Lock Structurally Works (Wai)
Very nice write up....you can tell that time was surely spent evaluating the new recent product! I still think that time will tell.....will be interested to see reviews of individuals who have used them 
09-14-2004, 10:20 AM
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Re: How Korbach Frame Lock Structurally Works (Wai)
great write up Wai... I think your concerns are valid ones, and I think they should be addressed before we start bolting these things up to our cars.
09-14-2004, 10:28 AM
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Re: How Korbach Frame Lock Structurally Works (B18C-Rsi)
wow...can it be true?? An actual tech oriented topic in the ITR forum again rather than junk? I think so!!!!
Great write up Wai, when i first read a thread concerning these locks,, i took a look at the "rails" where they connect to the bumper support, and the first thing that came to mind was..wow the sheet metal is thin. The concern of metal fatigue where the frame lock connects to the rail and bumper is of concern to myself as well, as you noted, a reinforced backing plate "should" solve the problem.
As far as frontal collision damage is concerned, i never thought about the consequences with the locks, but you have a valid point, which makes complete sense.
Excuse my ignorance, i stopped reading the previous threads on this topic, but does anyone know the metal thickness of these locks??
Great write up Wai, when i first read a thread concerning these locks,, i took a look at the "rails" where they connect to the bumper support, and the first thing that came to mind was..wow the sheet metal is thin. The concern of metal fatigue where the frame lock connects to the rail and bumper is of concern to myself as well, as you noted, a reinforced backing plate "should" solve the problem.
As far as frontal collision damage is concerned, i never thought about the consequences with the locks, but you have a valid point, which makes complete sense.
Excuse my ignorance, i stopped reading the previous threads on this topic, but does anyone know the metal thickness of these locks??
09-14-2004, 10:31 AM
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Re: How Korbach Frame Lock Structurally Works (Wai)
good write up, Wai. thanks. now add some fender braces and a triangular strut bar (bolted to the firewall) and let's see what happens in a crash 
09-14-2004, 10:32 AM
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Re: How Korbach Frame Lock Structurally Works (B18C-Rsi)
i was thinking that maybe if they could construct a bar or some sort of device to keep the front from bending over time it would be alot better. Would some sort of triangular pattern connecting from the front to the side help rigidity and stop bending?
In a collision it seems like ur car is pretty much fked whatever you do after framelocks.
In a collision it seems like ur car is pretty much fked whatever you do after framelocks.
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09-14-2004, 10:36 AM
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Re: How Korbach Frame Lock Structurally Works (Wai)
It seems this device is designed to stiffen the chassis.
Isn't more important to just prevent movement of the chassis near the suspension points?
Basically, wouldn't just a strong shock tower bar mixed with some sort of lower support create a similar effect without the negative effect of re-engineering the crumple zones?
Isn't more important to just prevent movement of the chassis near the suspension points?
Basically, wouldn't just a strong shock tower bar mixed with some sort of lower support create a similar effect without the negative effect of re-engineering the crumple zones?
09-14-2004, 10:43 AM
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Re: How Korbach Frame Lock Structurally Works (davidnyc)
Thx Y. Great time to bring this up. 
Chris - who was thinking the same thing Dave just typed... and never thought about the sheet metal fatigue, but it makes sense.
Chris - who was thinking the same thing Dave just typed... and never thought about the sheet metal fatigue, but it makes sense.
09-14-2004, 10:48 AM
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Wow, excellent write up.
If the front of the chassis is indeed a concern when it comes to flexing under cornering, is there another way to re-enforce the frame rails with out compromising the crumple zones?
I believe people have mentioned in previous threads that the bar included with traction arms provided a more responsive feel also, as it seemingly re-enforces the same area. However, it does not bolt to the bumper support itself so thinking logically it should have little impact on how the bumper support interacts with the frame rails under collision.
If this is the case, running an alluminum reenforcement bar in the same area as the radius arms do, would result in the same effect but safer?
The idea being run a bar simmilar to the one shown here, with out any radius arms.
Again, this is all under the assumption that the front area of the chassis does need re-enforcement and effects the traction/handling of a car.
If the front of the chassis is indeed a concern when it comes to flexing under cornering, is there another way to re-enforce the frame rails with out compromising the crumple zones?
I believe people have mentioned in previous threads that the bar included with traction arms provided a more responsive feel also, as it seemingly re-enforces the same area. However, it does not bolt to the bumper support itself so thinking logically it should have little impact on how the bumper support interacts with the frame rails under collision.
If this is the case, running an alluminum reenforcement bar in the same area as the radius arms do, would result in the same effect but safer?
The idea being run a bar simmilar to the one shown here, with out any radius arms.
Again, this is all under the assumption that the front area of the chassis does need re-enforcement and effects the traction/handling of a car.
09-14-2004, 11:29 AM
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Re: Re: (StyleTEG)
But what about EUDM and JDM cars with a lot smaller bumper support bars than the USDM? Is the front end of our cars flexing more than your USDM cars? And will this product if designed for a USDM spec ITR also fit a JDM and EUDM car?
09-14-2004, 12:01 PM
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Re: Re: (StyleTEG)
nice write up Wai...
I think you have a very good idea of how the Frame Locks work. You also brought up some good points. I have a bunch of good pictures of the install and would be happy to post them, but I have no way of hosting them right now.
Also I can check tonight and see what kind of thinckness we are working with. I also kinda want to check them out and see if there is any signs of fatigue or stress on the frame rails. The backing plate w/attached nuts, to screw the bolts into or through after going through the rails, is definetly a good idea. It would also help on the install because they provide stick nuts with the kit, and they would be a PITA to remove and reinstall after you break the sticks off, with the backing plate it would be bigger and you could have the patter setup to have both bolts go through the one plate aiding in alighnment of the bolts and nuts.
just my $0.02
I think you have a very good idea of how the Frame Locks work. You also brought up some good points. I have a bunch of good pictures of the install and would be happy to post them, but I have no way of hosting them right now.
Also I can check tonight and see what kind of thinckness we are working with. I also kinda want to check them out and see if there is any signs of fatigue or stress on the frame rails. The backing plate w/attached nuts, to screw the bolts into or through after going through the rails, is definetly a good idea. It would also help on the install because they provide stick nuts with the kit, and they would be a PITA to remove and reinstall after you break the sticks off, with the backing plate it would be bigger and you could have the patter setup to have both bolts go through the one plate aiding in alighnment of the bolts and nuts.
just my $0.02
09-14-2004, 12:05 PM
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Re: Re: (Jon V)
I thought this might be a good place to throw this in...
It is a copy of the legal disclaimer that was sent when I agreed to do testing on the product.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Solid_Ride »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Legal Disclaimer - Consent Agreement
I agree and have read the following product conditions:
I understand that:
1) Wearing a seatbelt greatly reduces potential injuries resulting from a collision. Upon purchasing Frame Locks, I agree to wear a seatbelt at all times, and to require my passengers to do so as well.
2) Any structural alterations to my vehicle, including installing Frame Locks, may:
a. Void the manufacturer’s warranty to the extent that I may be solely responsible for the repair costs of the car in the event of a collision.
b. Result in a more expensive repair in the event of a collision.
c. Adversely affect the crash performance of the car, including:
i. Change in the crush of the front-end structure, resulting in increased acceleration and forces exerted to the driver and occupants. This may increase injury or the likelihood of fatality to both driver and passengers.
ii. Air bags deploying at collision speeds less than originally intended by the manufacturer.
iii. False air bag deployment as a result of driving over debris or severe potholes. I understand that this may result in loss of control of the vehicle resulting in damage, injury or fatality to the driver, passengers and bystanders.
iv. Other crash worthiness concerns not limited to air bag deployment or crush of the front-end structure.
3) I will not hold Körbach Performance nor its officers, directors, shareholders, or any other of its past, present and future associates nor consultants liable for any damages, injuries or fatalities incurred from changes to the crash performance as a result of the installation of Frame Locks. I agree that I will not seek monetary damages in any form, including by means of lawsuit.
4) That if I decide to sell my vehicle to another party, I will remove the Frame Locks. If I decide to leave the Frame Locks attached, I will inform the Buyer of all the risks associated with the Frame Locks. I will also share this consent form with the Buyer prior to sale, and will direct them to http://www.körbachpeformance.com in order to read the consent agreement.
5) That if I decide to allow others to drive this car with the Frame Locks installed I will share this consent form with them prior to them driving the vehicle.
6) That if I decide to install the Frame Locks to my car or other cars I will use all safety precautions necessary, including but not limited to a) use of safety glasses b) jack stands c) gloves. If any injury or fatalities occur during the installation process, I will be solely responsible and will not hold Körbach Performance nor its officers, directors, shareholders, nor any other of its past, present and future associates or consultants liable for any damages, injuries or fatalities.
I agree to all of the above statements:
Signed: __________________________________
(Print) : __________________________________
Date: __________________
Mail to :
Korbach Peformance
969 G Edgewater, Suite # 248, Foster City CA 94404
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The only one that really worried me was the one I put in Italics...
It is a copy of the legal disclaimer that was sent when I agreed to do testing on the product.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Solid_Ride »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Legal Disclaimer - Consent Agreement
I agree and have read the following product conditions:
I understand that:
1) Wearing a seatbelt greatly reduces potential injuries resulting from a collision. Upon purchasing Frame Locks, I agree to wear a seatbelt at all times, and to require my passengers to do so as well.
2) Any structural alterations to my vehicle, including installing Frame Locks, may:
a. Void the manufacturer’s warranty to the extent that I may be solely responsible for the repair costs of the car in the event of a collision.
b. Result in a more expensive repair in the event of a collision.
c. Adversely affect the crash performance of the car, including:
i. Change in the crush of the front-end structure, resulting in increased acceleration and forces exerted to the driver and occupants. This may increase injury or the likelihood of fatality to both driver and passengers.
ii. Air bags deploying at collision speeds less than originally intended by the manufacturer.
iii. False air bag deployment as a result of driving over debris or severe potholes. I understand that this may result in loss of control of the vehicle resulting in damage, injury or fatality to the driver, passengers and bystanders.
iv. Other crash worthiness concerns not limited to air bag deployment or crush of the front-end structure.
3) I will not hold Körbach Performance nor its officers, directors, shareholders, or any other of its past, present and future associates nor consultants liable for any damages, injuries or fatalities incurred from changes to the crash performance as a result of the installation of Frame Locks. I agree that I will not seek monetary damages in any form, including by means of lawsuit.
4) That if I decide to sell my vehicle to another party, I will remove the Frame Locks. If I decide to leave the Frame Locks attached, I will inform the Buyer of all the risks associated with the Frame Locks. I will also share this consent form with the Buyer prior to sale, and will direct them to http://www.körbachpeformance.com in order to read the consent agreement.
5) That if I decide to allow others to drive this car with the Frame Locks installed I will share this consent form with them prior to them driving the vehicle.
6) That if I decide to install the Frame Locks to my car or other cars I will use all safety precautions necessary, including but not limited to a) use of safety glasses b) jack stands c) gloves. If any injury or fatalities occur during the installation process, I will be solely responsible and will not hold Körbach Performance nor its officers, directors, shareholders, nor any other of its past, present and future associates or consultants liable for any damages, injuries or fatalities.
I agree to all of the above statements:
Signed: __________________________________
(Print) : __________________________________
Date: __________________
Mail to :
Korbach Peformance
969 G Edgewater, Suite # 248, Foster City CA 94404
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The only one that really worried me was the one I put in Italics...
09-14-2004, 12:44 PM
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Re: Re: (Jon V)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jon V »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
a. Void the manufacturer’s warranty to the extent that I may be solely responsible for the repair costs of the car in the event of a collision.
b. Result in a more expensive repair in the event of a collision.
c. Adversely affect the crash performance of the car, including:
</TD></TR></TABLE>
You should be worried about these more.
They echo exactly what my concern was.
a. Void the manufacturer’s warranty to the extent that I may be solely responsible for the repair costs of the car in the event of a collision.
b. Result in a more expensive repair in the event of a collision.
c. Adversely affect the crash performance of the car, including:
</TD></TR></TABLE>
You should be worried about these more.
They echo exactly what my concern was.
09-14-2004, 12:57 PM
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Re: Re: (Wai)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Wai »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You should be worried about these more.
They echo exactly what my concern was.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yah, I see exactly where you are comin from, but I have no warranty so thats no biggy, and If I crash my car it's getting totaled, frame locks or no frame locks
I completely understand that they change the crash impact zones and that the car is going to respond very differently if ever crashed. But, like already posted anything from a strut bar, to traction bars will change the geometry enough to effect crumple zones. The ITR is a little beefier and better suited for racing out of the box so there is not neccesarily the need to employ some of these things on a weekend race car, but in my case I have enough other modifications that my crumple zones are non-existant and any crash is going to be bad.
I really need a Roll Cage....
I give my approval to the Frame Locks but they are not the ansewer to all of Honda's problems like some of the advertising claims.
You should be worried about these more.
They echo exactly what my concern was.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yah, I see exactly where you are comin from, but I have no warranty so thats no biggy, and If I crash my car it's getting totaled, frame locks or no frame locks
I completely understand that they change the crash impact zones and that the car is going to respond very differently if ever crashed. But, like already posted anything from a strut bar, to traction bars will change the geometry enough to effect crumple zones. The ITR is a little beefier and better suited for racing out of the box so there is not neccesarily the need to employ some of these things on a weekend race car, but in my case I have enough other modifications that my crumple zones are non-existant and any crash is going to be bad.
I really need a Roll Cage....
I give my approval to the Frame Locks but they are not the ansewer to all of Honda's problems like some of the advertising claims.
09-14-2004, 01:01 PM
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Re: Re: (slammed_93_hatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but are cars don't have fram rails its a unibody</TD></TR></TABLE>
lol... YES they do!
lol... YES they do!
09-14-2004, 01:31 PM
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Re: Re: (StyleTEG)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by StyleTEG »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Wow, excellent write up.
If the front of the chassis is indeed a concern when it comes to flexing under cornering, is there another way to re-enforce the frame rails with out compromising the crumple zones?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Simply put, no.. They are meant to flex, bend, crumple, etc.. re-enforcing them only serves to prevent this, and transfer this energy to another place on the car.. if the bumper and frame rails cannot absorb force, then where else would you rather it? the firewall..
the other thing to be considered with these, on street cars with airbags, is that the additional force present - not being absorbed as much by the bumper and frame rails, WOULD make the SRS sensor/module think you are in a greater impact and deploy the airbags..
and as far as EUDM and JDM cars, I don't know if this product could be put on your car, but you would expect with less material meant to absorb force, that there probably is more motion as well in these components.. are US standards overboard? maybe..
for now, I'll stick with stiffening closer to the firewall, and more centered rather than worry about what the front bumper is doing.. I do want to learn more about these though..
If the front of the chassis is indeed a concern when it comes to flexing under cornering, is there another way to re-enforce the frame rails with out compromising the crumple zones?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Simply put, no.. They are meant to flex, bend, crumple, etc.. re-enforcing them only serves to prevent this, and transfer this energy to another place on the car.. if the bumper and frame rails cannot absorb force, then where else would you rather it? the firewall..
the other thing to be considered with these, on street cars with airbags, is that the additional force present - not being absorbed as much by the bumper and frame rails, WOULD make the SRS sensor/module think you are in a greater impact and deploy the airbags..
and as far as EUDM and JDM cars, I don't know if this product could be put on your car, but you would expect with less material meant to absorb force, that there probably is more motion as well in these components.. are US standards overboard? maybe..
for now, I'll stick with stiffening closer to the firewall, and more centered rather than worry about what the front bumper is doing.. I do want to learn more about these though..
09-14-2004, 05:29 PM
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Re: Re: (Jon V)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jon V »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">"iii. False air bag deployment as a result of driving over debris or severe potholes. I understand that this may result in loss of control of the vehicle resulting in damage, injury or fatality to the driver, passengers and bystanders."
The only one that really worried me was the one I put in Italics...</TD></TR></TABLE>
it says this in all air bag cars in the owners manual.. so nothing new. will the braces make the sensors more sensitive who knows hopefully this was also taken into consideration in the testing of the braces. i doubt they were since no mention of these tests results have been shown. but who knows.
and great discussion wai.
The only one that really worried me was the one I put in Italics...</TD></TR></TABLE>
it says this in all air bag cars in the owners manual.. so nothing new. will the braces make the sensors more sensitive who knows hopefully this was also taken into consideration in the testing of the braces. i doubt they were since no mention of these tests results have been shown. but who knows.
and great discussion wai.
09-14-2004, 07:22 PM
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SRS(airbag) sensor is located directly behind the radio in our cars.
I doubt these bumper braces stiffen up the chasis to the point that it will affect the SRS unit.
The big sway bars/high spring rates some of you guys run doesnt even affect the SRS unit....but of course, it could be an apples to oranges comparison as I am no engineer.
I doubt these bumper braces stiffen up the chasis to the point that it will affect the SRS unit.
The big sway bars/high spring rates some of you guys run doesnt even affect the SRS unit....but of course, it could be an apples to oranges comparison as I am no engineer.
