ITRbroham

I have found that rev matching is a little easier for me than the heel toe method. probably because of my big feet and my aftermarket pedals(gotta take those off).

For those of you who use the heel/toe method do you find that it is faster and much more second nature to brake, rev the engine, and downshift than say rev matching? To me it seems that heel/toe is a much quicker downshift and that rev matching is slightly slower and clumsier....especially when I do it!

After watching my BM video countless times and observing the drivers' heel/toe downshifts the procedure is so fast and second nature to them that if you weren't aware you would even know they were doind this!

So my question for those who have done both....do you guys feel the same that the heel/toe method for downshifting is slightly more second nature and therefore quicker than say rev matching in a race situation? What do you guys think?

Ross

Rev-matching, I find, only works if you're behind another car and you're being held up. Otherwise, if you want to go the quickest through a turn that you can possibly go, heel/toe is the only way to go. Now, with aftermarket pedals, why would heel/toe be harder? I curse my stock pedals every day cause they're too far apart. Big feet and aftermarket pedals are both very conducive to heel/toe.

BTW Lloyd - your quote rocks. canibus is so sick it's not even funny. My favorite:

"In a past life, I slayed hundreds,
In the life before that, I played trumpets to warn you I was comin"


[Modified by Ross, 2:46 AM 12/25/2001]

ITRbroham

Ross:
I have those old school Razo aluminum pedals that fit over the stock rubber pedals! It seems that they sit up just a tad too high so it's really hard for me to get my right foot in the correct position on the brake to roll my heel onto the gas pedal.

I dont know if it's this or do I have my seat up too close?

Yeah........ Canibus is one crazy **** when it comes to lyrics!

Ross

Heel/toe is hard to do unless you're applying full braking force because the pedals arent quite level with each other. go to a parking lot and practice or something.

nsxtcjr

Those two "methods" (heel/toe and rev-matching) are not inconsistent with each other. Ideally, you should do BOTH.

Heel/toe is a technique for blipping the throttle while you're braking, to get the revs up to where they match the road speed after the downshift. So the objective with heel/toe is to match revs WHILE you're braking, so they're matched when you let out the clutch.

If you don't heel/toe, you can still match revs; you just can't do it while you're braking (because you don't have three feet). You need to come off the brakes, do your downshift, blipping the throttle with your right foot while you have the clutch in, and match the revs as you let the clutch out. You can do this in the braking zone. Then if you need to still need to slow slightly to make the turn-in, you can apply more brakes.

IOW - you should ALWAYS be matching revs, whether you're heel-toe'ing or not.

Mr. Softee

I heel toe on almost every single turn on the street. Go to a parking lot and practice approaching a pole in third gear.. before hte pole.. brake and heel toe to 2nd then wind out of the turn (practice your apex / trail braking as well).

good luck.

-sam

Floyd

Is there a reason why there needs to be a pole in the equation?

TypeR 599

haha it adds a sense of danger to make it more fun

nsxtcjr

Yes - because the corner worker is Polish.

lotus

I actually can't heel/toe, I have to toe/heel... heel on brake and toe on throttle...

My foot won't twist enough for my heel to touch the gas pedal..

( could be the 3 inch stainless screws in my right ankle from a previous racing

experience )

Mr. Softee

if you hit a pole practicing heel toe down shifting you shouldnt even be driving... its a slow smooth maneuver... not an out of control drift. Im not saying he should have his mirrors clip the pole, just use something as an object to focus on... this will get you into the habbit of putting your eyes in the right position and feeling the position of an apex and the timing of your heel toe downshift.

Mr. Softee

lotus... when you heel toe downshift you shouldnt even be using your heel. You use the side of your foot on the brake then... clutch in... roll your foot over and smack the throttle to get your revs. Disengage clutch (you should have put the gear you want in as well already). Then resume braking and turn.

lotus

Yea I know, but the pedals are too far apart and I can't roll my foot that far cause

I have limited mobility in the ankle.. I'm pretty sure some wider pedals would help

alot... besides, I haven't used the car in anger yet and heel/toe under moderate

braking is much less effective than under full braking, so the street is not the best

test...

Mr. Softee

care to explain? I dont understand what you mean.

Spikey

that's a good point about the brake/gas pedals being not even

for me, the problem with heel & toe is that the brakes are too strong... by the time the brake pedal is depressed to a position level with the gas pedal, i'm almost stopped already! this is at street speeds though... high speed is ok

but it does make it hard to practice

lotus

Sorry... driven in anger... Racing...

moderate braking... street

full braking... track

It's hard to properly moderate your throttle heel/toeing unless you have a firm platform for your foot..ie a brake pedal that you are standing on...

On the street I just can't stand on the brake pedal due to traffic/ passanger comfort, so sometimes as I am pressing the gas pedal I am still pushing the brake pedal down and I rev the motor a little higher than I want to... particularily in first gear...


Sorry it's kind of hard to explain... but the faster I am going the smoother the shifting is..

TypeR 599

you dont have to make the gas and break pedal level, especially on streets man(thats what i think). of course your guna stop if you try to make the two pedals leveled, just try to control both. use the right amount of break for the turn and (for me) blip the throttle a little higher than usual for a little room for error(cuz i suck) when releasing the clutch. in the end, my heel is depressing the gas more than the break. i do this for street driving cuz it feels better accelerating out of a turn instead of accelerating after.

Ross

In the Best Motoring videos the guys actually use their heel to blip the gas while their toe is on the brake. I rode with Warren on this board (crazy ****) and I believe he does this too.

yoshi234

Lloyd:
I'll give j00 free heel'n toe lessons for xmas, like I did w/ aoi last year.

yoshi - who had thoughts of getting "HEELTOE" or "HEELNTO" as a license plate once

ghettoracer

there are two ways to heel-toe. you perform a simple revmatch, or you perform a full double clutch. read this thread from another board, we discussed it recently in details.

http://www.corner-carvers.com/forum/...ML/000576.html


[Modified by frank@b16a.com, 3:12 AM 12/25/2001]

Edwin

You will never master heel toe unless you drive your car friggen hard.

I use a combination of rev matching, heel & toe, and none at all some times on the street.

When I rev match towards a stop light and find a great majority of people are brake light watchers. You know the type who only brake if they see red taillights. . They cannot judge distance or perspective for ****.. and will literally run into you if you don't tap on the brakes to show them the red taillights their so familiar with.
So be careful if slow down the car by rev matching and going down the gears.

Find the best seating position for heel & toe. Your leg cannot be cramp because it restricts the sliding pivot motion you will need to hit the accelerator to blip. I find it harder in the ITR upright seating position but it can be achieved. Just get some fatter pedals and move your drivers seat accordingly.

Edwin

Hahaha

Spikey

that is an excellent point!

Mr. Softee

if you are rev matching correctly you shouldnt be slowing down the car all that much...

SiTEC

lotus,
get some aftermarket pedals with wide accelerator so you can blip the throttle with you foot at an upright position while you heel/toe. it helps me. you can even get those razo pedals that you can adjust the wideness of the accelerator