Black R

i'm going to give you guys a little back ground:

this motor was in my '00 itr.
way back years ago, I added toda B's and a vafc, toda header and aem cai. playing with the cam gears and dyno tuning, it made 191whp. this was with ps and ac installed:
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=213963&page=2

well i wrecked that car, so i put this motor into my hatchback.
i went back to stock cams for a while:
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=948820

i changed some things around and with toda spec c's, aem short ram, and hytech header it made 186whp with cam gears at 0,0. this was with ac but no ps.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1089192

fast forward to present, and the car now makes 190/130 with spec c's and toda itb's + hytech header... soooooooo.....wtf?



i was hoping to crack 200whp with stock itr head and stock itr bottom end.

at this point i'm thinking of either going k20a or just adding a jrsc for the torque since i primarily autox this car.....

i know lots of people are now cracking 190whp with just bolt-ons + stock cams and maybe thinner headgasket, etc...

so, are you making more than 190whp na, and what are your mods?

citrus3000psi

Stupid questions but are these on the same dyno? were weather conditions close to the same?

JjuuN R

I'm guessing it has to be a difference in tunes, there's no way it should be going backwards in HP. Any thought in this?

neo_

Have you done a compression test recently?

white rocket

I'm no dyno expert but I will share my mod list and dyno #'s with you.

195.5whp and 13x ft./lb. (the graph is hard to read for the torque)
this is on a dyno dynamics dyno

Mods:
Comptech Icebox w/ K&N filter & Samco intake tube
Spoon spec TB
Import Builders IM
RC 310's
Outlaw Engineering gasket kit
AEM cam gears (adjusted)
Toda header
high flow cat
T1R catback (no bottlenecks)
UR pulley kit
Fidanza 7.5lb FW
Hondata s200 tuned
BONE STOCK INTERNALS

That's all I can think of that would actually add/free up whp.

Black R

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by citrus3000psi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Stupid questions but are these on the same dyno? were weather conditions close to the same?</TD></TR></TABLE>


no, these are not the same dyno... well some of them are...
but they've all been very consistent and close in terms of output imho.

and neo, no i haven't done a compression and leakdown in a year or so. this motor has 46k miles on it.....

Hooch'n

think of the miles on the car and also.....same tuner/same weather/same dyno/ how many years later......

If this motor is out of your black itr......it has to be 5 years older since you last tuned it in the itr.

anyway, just rape that thing 190 is kool for auto xing

neo_

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

and neo, no i haven't done a compression and leakdown in a year or so. this motor has 46k miles on it.....</TD></TR></TABLE>

Never hurts to do one, give it a try.

B20qzmonster99

Your build is too mild to be breaking 200whp. Get your compression up, and get a good computer to tune the setup and you should make more than 200. Also if you are using the car for auto cross, you don't need that much power to do it.

neo_

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B20qzmonster99 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Your build is too mild to be breaking 200whp. Get your compression up, and get a good computer to tune the setup and you should make more than 200. Also if you are using the car for auto cross, you don't need that much power to do it. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Not really, 190s have been done with quality bolt ons. 200 with his setup should be reachable.

Dave_B

Myself, I'm at 192 with room to spare. I went with a conservative tune due to the abuse the engine would see.

Mods:

Mugen Intake
SMSP 1 piece header
SMSP Race Exhasut
Mugen Head Gasket
Hondata IM gasket

Tuned by John @ LHT Performance



More info can be found here...

https://honda-tech.com/zero...ge=27

AW

I was at 191 with 01 itr USDM motor, skunk2 stage1 cams, jdm mugen header, skunk2 ecu and VAFC, test pipe, skunk 2 exhaust. aem intake, rc 310 injectors and toda cam gears. Now I will be rebuilding this setup and will dyno to see if I get the same power level except this time with a cat.

Bradstard

IMO, Toda C's are too big of a cam for a stock USDM ITR motor. I also lost power when I went from Crower 63402a's to Toda C's. I also removed the power steering on the Toda C's.

Big Money D

before I sold it I was at 192/134

stock cams
toda header
mugen headgasket
kenji p28 ecu
vafc
cam gears
aem cai

mtny

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by white rocket &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm no dyno expert but I will share my mod list and dyno #'s with you.

195.5whp and 13x ft./lb. (the graph is hard to read for the torque)
this is on a dyno dynamics dyno

Mods:
Comptech Icebox w/ K&N filter & Samco intake tube
Spoon spec TB
Import Builders IM
RC 310's
Outlaw Engineering gasket kit
AEM cam gears (adjusted)
Toda header
high flow cat
T1R catback (no bottlenecks)
UR pulley kit
Fidanza 7.5lb FW
Hondata s200 tuned
BONE STOCK INTERNALS

That's all I can think of that would actually add/free up whp.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

That is awesome on a dyno dynamics! I only got 143 with my gsr.

MOVE OVER

I guarantee he adjusted for dynojet readings.
At 7.5 psi I made 188.7
There is no way he made that on a dyno dynamics without boost.

IntegraType-R

Sup black R.. your car is making more.. i assure you.. i was in the 200whp with a manifold and s2s2's..
i now have ported itbs..on my car hoping to break the 220whp mark, stock itr bottem end..

whats your tune look like..there's a number of possible reason for low numbers..
cam timing?? were the gears degreed or adjusted?? igition maps tuned?? whats your AFR.
toda c's are bigger then s2s2's and my power started to drop off around 8700rpms..

camlob

Yup I think you have to bump up your static cr. But in my case I already had the static cr when I got dismal results from my first tune. So I went to another builder who ported my head. From 169whp I went to 186 whp. I just put a custom SMSP copy header but have'nt dynoed it yet. I think I am doing more than 190whp with the new header. Maybe more static cr and a good port job will do the trick?

chad

b20 vtec....

HEADWORK
stock itr cams
blox intake manifold
65mm tbody

stock b20b bottomend
stock b20 head gasket

207 and 138 on the same dyno my k20 put 235 and 158 down

Black R

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B20qzmonster99 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Your build is too mild to be breaking 200whp. Get your compression up, and get a good computer to tune the setup and you should make more than 200. </TD></TR></TABLE>


That is possible...

I was trying to find a repeatable formula so that people could just do basic things like bolt-ons and cams + tune to make 200whp reliably.

I'm really starting to think that it isn't possible with a stock head and bottom end (b18c5).

I'm going to let it sit for a few days and think about my next move.

Of course I could probably have just had the head ported and made more power with stock cams - as we know the head is where the power is... but I was hesitant to do that with so few miles. Also, I felt that for the average person to remove the head would be too much to ask of them. I know I can do it, but I really wanted to figure out a way for the average joe to make power without doing so.

i guess i left some stuff out:
yes, this is the latest tune - done with a socketed p28 on crome pro by blundar from pgmfi.org in Ohio.

we tried all of these combinations:
0, 0
+2, 0
0, +2
-2, 0
0, -2
+2, -2
-2, -2
etc.
these cams liked to be at 0,0. everything else lost power.

base timing is 16deg and i can post the .bin if anyone wants to review it.

plugs were bkr7e-11's gapped at .032"

Xtream_V

just a quick question but why are some of you guys running chipped/after market ecu's along with the V-AFC? i always thought that once you got, say the hondata s200, the V-AFC would be pointless?

Black R

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Xtream_V &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just a quick question but why are some of you guys running chipped/after market ecu's along with the V-AFC? i always thought that once you got, say the hondata s200, the V-AFC would be pointless?</TD></TR></TABLE>


That is correct. In my past, I had a vafc only when it was a bolt-on affair. Once I got hondata s200 (and later crome pro), I no longer needed the vafc. Now I know some people use a vafc as a monitor only and don't wire up the other stuff that actually makes changes...


-hth

Xtream_V

that makes perfect sense. thanks

0mtber

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I was trying to find a repeatable formula so that people could just do basic things like bolt-ons and cams + tune to make 200whp reliably.

I'm really starting to think that it isn't possible with a stock head and bottom end (b18c5).
</TD></TR></TABLE>

It is on a dynapack

You need compression & displacement

itr1244

stock B18C5 i/h/e = 165 whp and 120 tq

ctr pistons, rm cams, rm valve trains + 310 cc injectors = 201 whp and 140 tq @ 8000