GR_DC2

Need help diagnosing this steering wheel shake at 75-80mph. I’ll try to make this a simple read for those with ADHD


Here’s my front end setup:

2000 Integra GSR stock B18C1 w/ 98 spec JDM ITR transmission
-New OEM front upper control arms
-New OEM front LCA bushings (BUT used ITR compliance bushings)
-New Ingalls camber kit (replaces control arm joints only)
-New OEM tie rod ends
-New OEM front lower ball joints
-New HASPORT engine mounts (running all 5)
-New (Reman) brake calipers w/ new pads and new rotors. Rotors NOT warped, and Calipers NOT seized.
-Reman OEM axles (from local company) yes oem with paint and rubber dampeners
-Reman OEM PS rack (from same local company) w/ original PS bushings
-Original intermediate shaft (~160K miles)
-Original knuckles w/ original wheel bearings (~160K miles) (NO abnormal noises, NO hub/bearing play)


Investigation/Testing results:

-without any wheels on (put car up on a lift) ran the car up to 75-80mph and ZERO shaking.
-w/ TE37 w/ AD08, shakes at 75-80mph are very minor, but still there.
-w/ Kosei K1 and R comps, shakes at 75-80mph were VERY noticeable.


I am guessing I get the most shake with the Kosei because it’s the heaviest setup. My assumption is that something rotating (axles or wheel bearings) and the weight of the wheels on the hub is causing the rotational play or imbalance i have somewhere to transfer up the steering column and into steering wheel shake.

For that reason, I’m assuming it’s my axles, intermediate shaft or wheel bearings but have not ruled out a poorly remanufactured PS rack either. Everything i read says high speed shaking is likely wheels/tires but i've had both wheel setups balanced to zero by many different shops so i'm positive the issue is with the car and not the wheel balance. Everything i read about bad axles says it should vibrate on acceleration not high speed--the car is perfectly smooth on acceleration. Is it likely my wheel bearings then? But they're not THAT old and do not make any noises or have any play.


What does this sound like to you guys?

EDIT: FIXED. SOLUTION BELOW

rick_rabies

if I was you.
I would find a friend or a local with another set of wheels and tires and just try it. then you can 100% rule out.
I would address the tightness of fastners/bolts,
steering rack bushings?
FRONT LOWER CONTROL ARM BUSHINGS........? these go bad you will have vibration.
wheel bearings don't normal cause vibration more noise than anything unless they are super bad and they would be obvious.
jacked up with a wheel on grab wheel hand and try to move left right. up down is there play?

try dif wheels.
check control arm and steering rack bushings
bolts.
change out wheel bearings anyways.
if that doesn't fix it you should address the reman rack

GR_DC2

I’m positive it’s not the wheels. I’ve had this issue across 4 different sets of wheels, 2 of which I sold off because I thought they were bent. The other 2 sets were brand new Kosei from tirerack and brand new TE37. That’s when I figured it might be bad balancing but literally took both sets of wheels to get balanced by 3 different shops each and all balanced out to zero.

All fasteners/bolts are tight for sure. Checked multiple times since it’s easy to do.

Steering rack bushing are original. I did not see any cracking when doing my rack, BUT I have new bushings ready to go in case it comes down to it.

Replaced the Front LCA with a used JDM ITR set from HMO to rule out bent arms. While doing that I replaced the bushings with new OEM—the only bushings NOT replaced with new were the Compliance bushings which I reused the JDM ITR bushings that came with the arms from HMO. They didn’t look worn or cracked so I figured it’d be ok.

No wheel bearing play to speak of. I am replacing my wheel bearings this weekend anyway so we’ll see if it does anything.
I also just rebuilt my intermediate shaft with new OEM bearing and seal, so I may throw that in as well.
Also picked up another set of reman OEM axles from the local reman shop to test out.

If I end up replacing wheel bearings, intermediate shaft, axles and it doesn’t result in any change, then I will likely move to replace the LCA compliance bushing and steering rack bushings. THEN if that doesn’t fix it, I will replace the steering rack again. I just hate throwing parts at it, but it’s just so hard to pinpoint the issue….

rick_rabies

its a game.
do the easy stuff first. id replace the stuff your going to do anyways and since you have the parts.
too bad its not like a chevy. when they make noise or drive funny, just slam it into a curb and it goes away.

wunfstgsr

Shaking at 80mph is usually a bad axle in my experience, every time my civic or integra starts shaking bad especially at around 80mph it was always the axle. Even right now my Integra is shaking at 80 mph recently, I thought it might be the NRG torque dampner I installed previously but after taking a look at my axle on the lift the driver side boot is torn, yours might not be torn but still could be bad.. Try a oem remanufactured. axles from dealer! there more than the auto stores but cheaper than a OEM brand new one!

GR_DC2

Fixed problem update!

Installed a rebuilt intermediate shaft (new bearing and seal), reman OEM driver side axle, and new OEM PS rack bushings and the shaking is gone.

The OEM reman PS rack had aftermarket bushings in it but they seemed to be ok, however i replaced them with new OEM bushings anyway for peace of mind. After rebuilding the extra intermediate shaft i had, i compared it to the one that came out and both had the same small amount of play (bracket to shaft) so i that probably wasn't the cause. Most likely the fix was replacing the driver axle. Either way, glad it's finally fixed. Thanks for the help everyone.

GR_DC2

UPDATE:

In the previous post I thought the car was fixed but it wasn't. It was about 98% fixed. It drove pretty good, but still had a slight shake present, but wasn’t very intense at all. However, eventually the shaking at 75-85mph came back to full intensity.
Turned out that wheel bearings fixed it.
I’ll try to be as detailed as possible in case people stumble upon this thread in the future.

Symptoms:
Steering wheel shook anywhere from 65mph up to 85mph. Most intense shaking was 80-85mph.
Shaking was intermittent—sometimes it was worse than other times and it did NOT seem dependent on road conditions, hot or cold engine, tire pressure, etc.
Shaking was worse with heavier wheels/tires and bigger brake rotors (when I put Spoon twinblocks on).

My wheel bearings made ZERO noise, spun smoothly, and didn’t have any play! Multiple mechanics told me my wheel bearings seemed fine. Well, I was running out of stuff to replace, so I threw on wheel bearings on both sides and what do you know, car is solid now. To my surprise, the car is even smoother driving straight and turning now—I noticed the difference almost instantly when I pulled out of my driveway. I guess I never realized that my car should have been driving smoother (No thanks to the harshness of Hasport mounts for masking this issue).

I had a feeling for a long time that it could be my wheel bearings, but I never replaced them just because there were no “usual” symptoms of bad bearings and many professionals didn’t think that was the source either. But all the issues kept pointing towards bearings –I especially thought so after I started to notice heavier unsprung weight loads made the shaking worse. At that point I figured it had to be axles or bearings and I’d been through so many axles that I couldn’t possible have the worst luck ever.

Why did I think I fixed it after I put the new driver axle/rebuilt half shaft and steering rack bushings? My guess is that maybe it was my driver side wheel bearing that was going bad and so maybe retorquing the axle nut back on after the axle swap helped tighten up the bearing a bit. I have no idea—it’s just a theory. My bearing wasn’t bad enough to see any noticeable play anyway. It wasn’t until I put Spoon twinblocks on with larger and heavier rotors that I noticed the shaking came back.

Anyway, glad it’s fixed now and I hope this thread can help someone else out in the future.

wunfstgsr

Good news, cause im going through the same thing, lots of shaking at 80+ mph. I took off my NRG torque dampner and replaced my bad axle and it still seems shaky I wonder if my wheel bearings are bad, in 12 years of owning my Integra I never replaced them.

MotorMouth93

iTrader: (1)

Check the U-joints in the steering column, if the bolts loosen they can cause some pretty violent shaking and clunking. Getting to them is easy, take off the black plastic tube covering the column right above the pedals.

GR_DC2

It's fully possible it could be wheel bearings. My knuckles came off a donor car with probably 150-200K miles. Like i said, no signs of bad wheel bearings, but they were definitely bad!

But you might as well check everything else first. Also, keep good notes on what you check/change and what differences, if any, they make.
-Wheel balance
-Tie rods (outer and inner)
-Axles
-Wheel bearings
-Shocks

Axles are a funny thing for Honda's especially since OEM reman aren't available from the dealer any longer. Aftermarket axles have always been hit or miss. I remember when i purchased an Autozone axle back in 2010 and it shook on acceleration immediately after install. I searched H-T and everyone said it's common and that i should purchase OEM reman from the dealer. Once i did, it was smooth of course. So when i was diagnosing my shaking this time, even though i didn't have shaking on accel (usually a symptom of a badly balanced axle), i thought i had just gotten bad axles since they were aftermarket (first Insane Shafts, then O'reilly, then Driveshaft Shop). I finally settled on some OEM reman from a local rebuilder which seemed to have the least shaking. I knew in the back of my mind that i couldn't possibly have this bad luck with axles, but i kept believing that axles were the cause for some reason. So i guess what i'm saying is, it could still be your axles so just try some good brand axles (or known good axles) and if that doesn't fix it, then move on to the next thing. But try not to waste too much money like me!

wunfstgsr

My first things I will check is wheel balance and bearings then ill try inner tie rods. I have had some horrible experiences with AutoZone axles, almost every one popped out, once it popped out on the freeway! since I have only got reman from the dealer. Now that the engine makes over 300HP these axles are not holding up, Currently im running a Driveshaft shop level 0 on the passenger side and a Yonaka driver side axle. So far they feel good, the Yonaka holds up to the power level im at so that's a good thing.

GR_DC2

Ok well, i lied. Wheel bearings weren't the source of the shaking. The car was good for about a week (and by good i mean shaking wasn't completely gone, but it was 99% gone). Then the shaking slowly crept back up over the next week.

However, i think i actually solved the problem now.

First off, my upper A arm setup is: OEM A arm w/ Ingalls camber kit. For those that don't know how the Ingalls camber kit works, it replaces the A arm joints with sliding joints (2 per arm) so the joint can slide the entire arm out to adjust camber. It's an old design and since it has 2 sliding joints per arm, it can also adjust caster if you slide the joints unevenly from each other. So my thoughts were to replace the Ingalls kit with OEM joints to not only see if the Ingalls kit maybe had some play and was the source but also fix my caster (which wasn't terribly off, but it was uneven left to right).

Last night i ended up removing my Ingalls camber kit and replacing them with the stock joints. Upon removing the passenger side A arm, i noticed the press-fit ball joint got slightly knocked out of position due to the A arm hitting the strut tower (no i'm not slammed, have about 1-2 finger gap). The joint had about a 1-2mm gap between the top flange and the top surface of the arm. It immediately occurred to me that this could definitely be the cause! My shaking was always intermittent so it could totally be the joint moving in the arm--sometimes seating better than other times. So i cautiously hammered the joint back into the arm as a temp fix. Of course I plan to replace the arm with a new one since a loose press fit joint is not something i feel comfortable driving with every day. I'll likely take the old one and have the joint welded in place to the arm and keep it as a spare. Once i took the car out for a drive, it felt very good, even at lower speeds than 80mph. Steering was super solid for the 20 minute test drive.

As far as the wheel bearings helping for a week? My theory is that since i had to remove the entire knuckle to remove/replace the bearings, I must have inadvertently helped seat the A arm ball joint better than it was. And it took a week or so to work itself back into a slightly loose position. The joint was NOT completely loose, not even close. Like i said, it was only out by 1-2mm. It was still tight in there, but obviously if it moved 1-2mm, then it has/had SOME movement, which is alarming anyway. So i'm not 100% certain this was the cause--could have just as easily been the uneven caster--but i did not adjust caster when i did wheel bearings (it was the same before and after), so my guess is the A arm ball joint was the culprit.

Once i get the new A arm in and get an alignment, i'll drive the car for a couple weeks and report back.

Here's a pic of the A Arm. You can see that the tip of the Arm is bent out of shape from hitting the shock tower. This pic is AFTER i hammered it back down. Before hammering it down, it was 1-2mm higher than you see here. The gap you see right now can't be helped unless the arm is bent back into shape, but i didn't want to risk doing that and possibly widening the hole even more (risking making the joint even looser). Right now, the joint is seating fully all around, besides the front section right here in the pic where the tip of the arm is bent down a bit.

tony_2018

Did you replace the upper balljoint?

GR_DC2

no

tony_2018

Is that actually an oem balljoint, or oe style? I just find it hard to believe that would happen.

GR_DC2

Yes it's a very new OEM arm and joint. It's only about 4 months old. I don't see why it would be hard to believe seeing as how it is bent from hitting the shock tower. It's a press-fit joint, so if the surrounding arm is bent, the fit on the joint can loosen, allowing it to move. It's a result from driving around town and hitting bumps/dips as well as the arm length being extended due to my camber kit. I'm going to probably try a PCI camber arm kit since it's a compact design.

GR_DC2

Well, back to the drawing board. The upper A arm was not the problem. Installed the PCI camber arm and got an alignment and the steering was still shaking at 80mph. This was with the Spoon calipers and Spoon rotors. I asked my mechanic friend why the steering seemed so solid after taking off the Ingalls camber kit and he said it's probably because i had a lot of negative camber at that point (-3.0) so the tire angle probably helped to numb the shaking. But once i put the PCI arms on and cranked the camber down to -2.0, then it increased tire contact patch allowing the shaking to be felt again.

Anyway, a couple days ago I put my OEM brakes back on and shaking has minimized substantially. It's 99.9% gone, however still present. I remember it was this smooth right before the Spoon calipers which is why i initially thought it was the Spoon rotors giving me issues, but then i purchased two other sets of rotors (mini cooper fitment O'Reilly and Stoptech slotted) but they both ended up shaking as well.

So that leads me to believe that maybe my axles have a slight imbalance that's accentuated by the heavier/larger rotors that i had to run for the Spoon calipers.

I was hesitant all this time to say that the issue is still my axles, but I don't know what else it could be. It's definitely a radial imbalance--so something rotating, which means, wheels/tires, rotors, wheel bearings or axles.

Wheels/Tires: i've run multiple sets of wheels/tires myself and same shaking--had them balanced multiple times also. Ran my friend's brand new set of TE37 and R888R with no change. I have ruled out Wheels and tires.

Rotors: I've tried 3 sets of rotors on my spoon calipers and all shake (Spoon, which is redrilled OEM Honda, O'Reilly, & Stoptech slotted). On OEM GSR brakes/rotors it still shakes, although minimally so i've ruled out rotors.

Wheel Bearings: I've run 2 separate sets of knuckles, both with two sets of wheel bearings (old & new). None of my wheel bearings had play before the change so it was always done just to see if it would make a difference, but never did. So this is ruled out.

Axles: While I've gone through tons of axles (3 sets of OEM, 1 set BNIB Driveshaft shop lvl 0, 1 set BNIB Insane shafts, 1 set reman O'Reilly), they have all had vibrations to some degree. Some had the tell-tale vibration on acceleration. DSS, Insane & O'reilly all don't have vibration dampers so i chalked the shaking up to that at the time. The OEM set i'm using right now is the best set so far. From my research, it's not typical for bad axles to shake at higher speeds, but the change from 280mm sized rotors back to OEM GSR 261mm rotors just makes me think that it can't be anything else. The only difference is the heavier unsprung weight that causes the shaking to worsen.

I spoke to Marty at Raxles and he was kind of stumped and wasn't sure the source of the issue was the axles. The only thing he could think of was to move the rubber vibration damper on the axle around to see if it makes a difference. So that'll be my next step.


PS. I realize this thread has gone long past the "ADHD friendly" read that the title states but at this point I've read SO many H-T threads on shaking/vibrations that i feel it's my duty to write down as much detail as possible for future searches.