zilverz

1995 Integra OBD I


Scenario:

Jacobs ICE Pak performance ignition for several years, Turn the key in a parking lot and got absolutely nothing. No Sound what so ever from starter. I replaced my starter couple months ago, so i figured it probably was my ICE pak. Maybe the coil went bad. So i walked over to a shop got a Stock Distributor cap, slapped it on and it fired right up (so now it is running on stock ignition). Drove it for couple weeks everything fine. On the way home from the gym, my car died while I was driving. Starter trys to crank it up, but it just doesnt fire off.

I do not see any spark with a spark plug removed.

Plug wires are all in fine, magnacore

Replaced Rotor (Just replaced cap)

Try to start, rotor moves

Time belt is in tact and moves

Fuel pump primes for the 2 seconds

Fuses all look good

No CEL code

Distributor has 150k on it

What i Havent done:
Replaced the Dizzy
Replace the fuel filter


I have a helms. I have been trouble shooting different things to help isolate the problem. I think im going to start testing the Distributor components next. Just looking to see if anyone has any suggestions i may not have checked or have a resolution to a similar problem ?


EDIT UPDATE1: Still NO SPARK
Had another distro cap that i swapped still no spark

Tested the ignition coil: Tested the Resistance between A nd B terminals it was in spec... Tested the Resistance between terminal A and secondary winding terminal and it was in spec ... so coil tested out ok


Tested Ignitition Control Module (ICM):
BLK/YEL -> Ground = Had voltage
WHT/BLUE -> Ground = Had voltage
YEL/GRN -> ECM = Did not test for continuity PIN A21
BLUE -> Tachometer = Did not test for Continuity

UPDATE2

Swapped my ICM (ignitor) from my 1992 integra into my 1995 integra (the no spark car)

Aligned rotor in the #1 position when reassembly

Still will not start

Still have not tested continuity from:
ICM -> ECU (Pin A21)
ICM -> Tach (where ever that location is havent found it in helms)

UPDATE 3

Tested the OHMs of the 3 sensors inside the distributor. All 3 read above 350 ohms. so they checked out good.... checked the same wires at the ECU all 3 read good there too.

Tested the Yellow/Green wire ECM <-> ICM with oscillascope at ECU and got the signal to register. Also checked it at the distributor with the Oscllascope at the Distro and it registered as well.

I just noticed that my SAFC is not powering on. I didnt look when the car originally shut off if it was dead as well. Inbetween now and then .. i had pulled on this SAFC pretty good getting some of the panels off. So i may have JUST somehow made some of the the wires disconnect internally. Anyway, I have a 2nd SAFC plugged it in it powers on fine. The original one does not power at all. Also the SAFC has a green RPM wire that taps into the pin A21 (Yellow/Green wire ECM <-> ICM) i set the SAFC up and when I crank the car the RPMS go up on the SAFC.

I havent tested:
Wire from ICM <-> Tach (where is it ? )
SWAPPED the COIL (Ohmed ok)
SWAPPED the ECU (Every tests says its good)

Still no Spark /:

Any suggestions are welcome




Modified by zilverz at 8:39 PM 5/5/2004

D@nnY

if you pull a plug and turn the key looking at the plug your not going to see it spark bc it has no ground..when you screw the spark plug into the head thats how it gets a good ground....it could very likely be the ignitor ..

zilverz

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D@nnY &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if you pull a plug and turn the key looking at the plug your not going to see it spark bc it has no ground..when you screw the spark plug into the head thats how it gets a good ground....it could very likely be the ignitor ..</TD></TR></TABLE>


D@nny,

Thank you for the response. I plan on testing the Ignitor/Coil tommorrow. I tested the spark plug by placing spark plug snuggly in a wrench (around the thread) and then touching my vehicle ground contact with the other end, then had my brother turn the car over. Was that a good enough ground to get a spark ? ?

zilverz

UPDATE:
EDIT UPDATE1: Still NO SPARK

Had another distro cap that i swapped still no spark

Tested the ignition coil: Tested the Resistance between A nd B terminals it was in spec... Tested the Resistance between terminal A and secondary winding terminal and it was in spec ... so coil tested out ok


Tested Ignitition Control Module (ICM):
BLK/YEL -&gt; Ground = Had voltage
WHT/BLUE -&gt; Ground = Had voltage
YEL/GRN -&gt; ECM = Did not test for continuity (NEED ECU PIN location)
BLUE -&gt; Tachometer = Did not test for Continuity

The very last step says if everything tests OK then REplace the ICM. So i guess after I test the continuity to those two places i should buy a new ICM ?

Please anyone that knows the ECU pin to the ICM please post

Comments welcome

zilverz

I just noticed that when Reassembling the Distributor, I was not facing the Rotor to the bottom left (Cylinder 1) would this prevent spark plug firing ?

mademan2723

I had a similar problem not to long ago... i had no spark but the starter tried to turn the motor... i replaced the ICM and it started right up . the downside was it was $150 BUX

mademan2723

Yea also you will see spark if you have your sprak plug out and touching the bare frame somewhere ..... if the dizzy is working

zilverz

madman

thank you for the reply, I have a 92 LS as well and im going to swap the ICM from it into the 95 and see if the car starts.


Also if for refference if anyone wants to know the ECU Pin to test the ICM -&gt; ECU it is pin A21

JimBlake

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zilverz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I just noticed that when Reassembling the Distributor, I was not facing the Rotor to the bottom left (Cylinder 1) would this prevent spark plug firing ?</TD></TR></TABLE>I think it should only go on one way. How did you get the rotor on if it wasn't right? I guess when you install the distributor onto the head, you can force it 180 degrees out? Then it'll spark when you check it, but the spark occurs at the top of the exhaust stroke so it won't start.

I looked up the wire to tell you it's A21 but I guess you found out yourself...

zilverz

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JimBlake &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think it should only go on one way. How did you get the rotor on if it wasn't right? I guess when you install the distributor onto the head, you can force it 180 degrees out? Then it'll spark when you check it, but the spark occurs at the top of the exhaust stroke so it won't start.

I looked up the wire to tell you it's A21 but I guess you found out yourself...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thank you for looking up the PIN. I had located it but thank you.

As for the rotor, When I install it the contact is facing to the right. and i screw the screw back into it on the left. It just shows in the helm the proper way to reassemble is to align the contact to the bottom left afterwards at Cylinder 1. I had just been putting the cap back on. Wasnt sure if that would pose a problem with not getting any spark at all. I wouldnt think it would, but didnt know for sure

JimBlake

I think it's shown that way because that makes it easier to get at the rotor screw. If the engine was at #1 tdc the rotor should be pointing towards about 7 oclock. If the engine was at some other position, the rotor is pointing wherever it is...

If you want to check, take off the valve cover so you can see the cam sprockets. Turn the engine (forwards only) so the arrows point up, & the crank pulley timing marks line up. (Just like when you check your camshaft timing.) NOW the distributor rotor should point to the post for the #1 plug wire.

PlastikOwl

I doubt it would matter where the rotor was pointed. As long as it is on correctly, it spins around a lot, so it's going to cycle back over the the #1 position anyway.

zilverz

Jim, Pasti thanks for the replies


UPDATE2

Swapped my ICM (ignitor) from my 1992 integra into my 1995 integra (the no spark car)

Aligned rotor in the #1 position when reassembly

Still will not start

Still have not tested continuity from:
ICM -&gt; ECU (Pin A21)
ICM -&gt; Tach (where ever that location is havent found it in helms)


Should I take out all spark plugs to disperse any gas that may be flooded into the combustion chamber now? or sitting for a day or so should it be fine ?

Any suggestions are welcome

zilverz

UPDATE 3

Tested the OHMs of the 3 sensors inside the distributor. All 3 read above 350 ohms. so they checked out good.... checked the same wires at the ECU all 3 read good there too.

Tested the Yellow/Green wire ECM &lt;-&gt; ICM with oscillascope at ECU and got the signal to register. Also checked it at the distributor with the Oscllascope at the Distro and it registered as well.

I just noticed that my SAFC is not powering on. I didnt look when the car originally shut off if it was dead as well. Inbetween now and then .. i had pulled on this SAFC pretty good getting some of the panels off. So i may have JUST somehow made some of the the wires disconnect internally. Anyway, I have a 2nd SAFC plugged it in it powers on fine. The original one does not power at all. Also the SAFC has a green RPM wire that taps into the pin A21 (Yellow/Green wire ECM &lt;-&gt; ICM) i set the SAFC up and when I crank the car the RPMS go up on the SAFC.

I havent tested:
Wire from ICM &lt;-&gt; Tach (where is it ? )
SWAPPED the COIL (Ohmed ok)
SWAPPED the ECU (Every tests says its good)

Still no Spark /:

JimBlake

If the resistance of the coil (both primary & secondary) are OK then I wouldn't sweat about swapping it. Unless you find a spare somewhere... How about the spring-loaded secondary connection to the cap?

Make sure the distributor cap has continuity thru that connection at the coil over to the center of the rotor. Missing that spring-loaded graphite gizmo in the middle?? Measure the resistance of the distributor rotor (center to tip).

Jet Black

DONT trust the coil resistance.

On a hunch zilverz had, he installed an external coil and the car fired right up then stalled.

I'm having the same problem as he is.

Following his experience I ghetto wired a coil from a civic into the teg. Surprise surprise it ******* sparked!!!!! Oddly enough my coil resistance is within spec.

You can even see where the coil burnt out...there's a deformation in the casing.

Wooooooooooooot!

zilverz

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jet Black &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">DONT trust the coil resistance.

On a hunch zilverz had, he installed an external coil and the car fired right up then stalled.

I'm having the same problem as he is.

Following his experience I ghetto wired a coil from a civic into the teg. Surprise surprise it ******* sparked!!!!! Oddly enough my coil resistance is within spec.

You can even see where the coil burnt out...there's a deformation in the casing.

Wooooooooooooot!</TD></TR></TABLE>

JetBlack, that kicks *** man
glad yours is finally resolved. Im sure mine is probably gonna be all BBQ'd inside too. Now i just got to look up how to remove a screw with a stripped head (;

Jet Black

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zilverz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

JetBlack, that kicks *** man
glad yours is finally resolved. Im sure mine is probably gonna be all BBQ'd inside too. Now i just got to look up how to remove a screw with a stripped head (;</TD></TR></TABLE>

If its one of the screws that hold the coil in, just clamp down a good pair of visegrips on it and it should come out.

Thanks allot for the idea man...allthough I wish it wasnt the coil as I was about to get an ignitor for free

zilverz

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jet Black &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

If its one of the screws that hold the coil in, just clamp down a good pair of visegrips on it and it should come out.

Thanks allot for the idea man...allthough I wish it wasnt the coil as I was about to get an ignitor for free </TD></TR></TABLE>


yes one of those screw heads is shot .. tried vice grips already and it wasnt wanting to budge ... i will try them again tommorrow .. if that doesnt work .. im gonna have to dremel me a straight slot groove

D@nnY

yes you cannot trust the coil resistance...it never works the only way is to borrow one that you know works and put it in...

Try to jump the ecu and see if it shoots you a code 15(i think thats it) its an igniton signal problem.. do you have an aftermarket igniton module on it?

Also after you turn the car over a few times pull the plugs and see if they are wet with fuel.

ALSO--if all else fails pull your valve cover and make sure your car didnt jump timing..make sure the marks on the cam gears line up..
your intake cam is what spins the distributor shaft ...the car might be sparking erracticly or the distributor can even get locked up by the cam...Pm me if oyu have any questions or give me an aim

D@nnY

ALSO - The rotor will only go on the shaft one way and the shaft should only go into the cam
one way also...BUT i have seen people put them in the cam backwards and hammer them in..make sure its in the right way...

ALSO-Dont check for spark with the plug ...

pull a wire and stick a screwdriver in it and hold the screwdriver on a ground..be careful not to elctricute the **** out of yourself but hey if you feel a shock thats a good thing.. KEEP IT SIMPLE

JimBlake

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jet Black &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... wired a coil from a civic into the teg. Surprise surprise it ******* sparked!!!!! Oddly enough my coil resistance is within spec...</TD></TR></TABLE>I've never seen a bad coil with good resistance, but that's good to know! I gotta remember that.

Jet Black

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JimBlake &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've never seen a bad coil with good resistance, but that's good to know! I gotta remember that.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ya I know....doesnt make sense. My theory:

It's resistance is proportional to the current it handles....this happens with damaged wires...my dad's oldsmobile's powerwindows didnt work, yet they had continuity to the power source....I didnt understand until I measured the resistance when the power window motor was getting power, went from 0.4 ohms to 761 ohms....replaced the wire and it worked.

Same deal with the coil methinks.

JimBlake

You can't measure resistance correctly when there's power in the wire. So you think you measured 761 ohms, but the measurement wasn't correct. In fact, you even get the wrong measurement if there's more than one path across from one probe to the other. So you have to disconnect the coil from it's connections before measuring it.

D@nnY

actually measuring ohms with power in the wire can **** up your multimeter ... A coil with the right resistance can still be screwed up in other ways... let us knwo if you found out what it was..