tiresias

Ok, there's some claims that you do NOT need camber kits for lowered cars to reduce tire wear. True but very UPSETTING!!!! You need them for other purposes.

Here's what happened to my car after the alignment. Originally, at stock height, the toe looked like this: l l
After the drop, my toe butterflied out: \ /
The toe got aligned to pointing inwards to prevent tire wear: / \

From my experience, the real problem for lowered cars that don't need camber kits is over-steering and skidding sideways while over-steering.

Here's what happened:
After my car was lowered from stock @ 2"F & 1.8"R, the car was done and no modifications are needed. The first time I noticed that the car over-steer is at a circle 4-way intersection. It skid around 15mph and the steering locked up. Good thing the tires were the only thing that grazed off the curb at the exit. But nonetheless, I look like a road hazard to cars nearby. I thought it could be my fault for accidentally putting my left-front on divider line that caused the skid so I decided to take it to the hills later that evening to have a little fun.

Guess what? I found out that the car tend to skid and lock up on snake turns and flat-surfaced turns. Both short turns and long turns. Also, I can feel the rear trying to over-steer during each turn. The car never did this at stock height or before alignment. The problem:

I found out that with the toes pointing inwards, the front tires give out during turning as they do not support load. Front traction just gives out and forces the back tires to support the rest of the weight transfer on its own. This is a real problem because "where's the steering traction?" If the toes are pointed inwards, we lose steering grip and on regular driving while in rain, a slow turn can lead to the car sliding. FF cars do not have drive-trains to push the back into a counter-balance on turns.

Aligning the toes pointing straight was the plan so I took it back to the shop and complained about that. They claimed that if they set the toes straight, the alignment would push the car towards the right and they were right. After aligning the toes straight, the car has a slight tendency to steer to the right. So, it went back to tire-saving toe settings again. Till I can get some camber kits :D

With camber kit, the toes will align straighter and closer to stock specs. Plus, eliminating over-steer.

This is just from my own experience. I've been visiting mountain roads over 2-years with twice a month and this is the first time I've ever have troubles--except having some opposing lane, road hogs almost hitting me on blind turns. The Falken ZE-912's are known to have good tread and traction. Like what I always tell my friends, "get stock cars and build them up the way you like if you're going to play with it. That way, you can know the limits and problems of what you've put into it."

Hopefully, I'm not the only experiencing this problem with no camber kits. If anyone else is having similar type of problems, feel free to give your input.

racebum

please visit the suspension forum and read up on how to make a car handle. so much of what you typed is between ill worded, wrong, misinformed and plain grasping at straws. with a 2" drop a camber kit isn't needed since you're at most -2deg. toe is critical and CAN have a major impact on how the car handles. spring rate is another area and so is the valving on your shocks.

also, the fallken 912 is barely better than my two most hated tires of all time, the kumho ast and sumitmo htrz. quality all season tires can be had for the same money. the kumho asx comes to mind. a 3 season tire would be better yet, something like the yoke s drive or stone 760 sport. summer tires get even better dry, try a kumho xs, dunlop star spec of bridgestone re-11, you will then know what decent tires really are.

DPSJosh

Agreed, there is a lot of poorly worded stuff in that paragraph. I do however disagree with the 'no camber kit needed'. I cannot see 1* of camber making a big difference as long as both sides are identical, but if one side is 1.5* and one is 1*, it's going to be noticable. The huge thread in the other forum says that as long as camber is less than 4*, then you don't need to worry about it. This is a blanket statement and retarded. 4* of camber is going to cause different things for different tires. It's completely dependant on the tire, how tall the sidewall is, how hard the sidewall is, etc. For the most part, a softer sidewall tire, or a large sidewall tire will distort so you will still have a full contact patch on the road, but I still believe you can destroy a tire by making it distort. When the tire flexes and distorts, it creates heat. If you have a short or stiff sidewall, then it may not 'increase' wear, but it will concentrate it as the sidewalls do not have much 'give' and it can decrease the contact patch. Also, yes, if you set toe and camber at complete 0, your car will most likely slightly pull right. This is due to road crown though. What i've said is mainly for daily driving as many people change their alignments for racing. The downside of the camber kit is that you can get a cheap or bad quality camber kit and have all kinds of problems with either the balljoint being poor quality, the balljoint plate sliding back and forth, the adjusters hitting the inner-fenders, etc.

b20_ed

So your driving around with your tires toed in................wow

supracrx

yea...toe in may cause the steering issues you are having.. even though its saving your tires and its ruining your handling.

i have -3.2 camber on the fronts for my integra. set toe to 0. i have no issues what so ever with over steer or anything. i did have camber kits and like stated above...i had problems with the ball joints. went bad in 6 months as well as hitting the inner fender. i was able to set to camber to -2.0 and that was the max. i went back to stock after it ball joints had some play. i haven't had a problem yet with camber set to -3.0.

racebum

this is true and a point that was never discussed in the sticky.

Zappythebum

oversteering on a FWD?
understeering is much more of a problem for a front engine front wheel drive car

DPSJosh

I had oversteer in a Dodge Avenger, lol. Bald rear tires + rain = oversteer :-D

GagnarTheUnruly

iTrader: (3)

FWD cars are no different than RWD when the throttle is closed, and can easily be set up for corner-entry oversteer. I had a pretty serious corner-entry oversteer situation when a semi ran me off an exit ramp in Mass. at 70 mph, but in my case the oversteer helped to keep me on the ramp as the radius decreased. I oversteered off the road eventually but not before scrubbing enough speed that no harm was done.

SleeperGSR

You are the only one. You need to read up alot on how tuning the suspension actually affects how you car handles.

for arguments sake it is next to impossible to add camber and make a front drive car oversteer.

Lastly mountain roads don't mean SH*T, if you are interested in pushing the limits of your car please go to a track before you kill someone.

SleeperGSR

agreed, with set up for lift off oversteer. But there is alot more to it than camber adjustments

clinzee

I'm so disappointed, seriously. You really need to read and read and read then get some real world experience then read some more.

Spawne32

iTrader: (3)

only on honda tech can this



= a performance tuned suspension

tiresias

Of all the respondents, supracrx and b20_ed found out what my intention for camber kits are. Hell, I can care less if the cambers are butterflied outwards like spawne32's. They're not the one's that are affecting my handling--it's the toes. If anything, they're aiding in giving the car a better grip on turns. I dunno how everyone read that I "assumed" camber is the problem.

I tested a set of parada spec2 from a buddy's car. The same results happen except at about 3-5mph higher only. We're both on 205/40/16. For safety sake, this is done on an empty lot. No, mountain driving isn't to push the limits of my car. It's just to clear and relax the mind.

like what the my buddy said as he aligned my toes that I can expect steering issue. He knew about the way the tire would eat on turns. He aligned the car assuming that it's for everyday use only. Camber is going to help align the toes to 0 for my car without the tendency to lean left or right.

In regards to reading forums, there's no evidence of reliable sources. From my years of doing papers, anyone's post on a forum is practically unreliable as any average schmoe can say anything. And specialties are based on which area a person is in. I had to get my info from visiting both a supspension shop and an alignment shop who actually went to school and got certified for what they did.

Inevitibaly, I do need to invest into a better supsension kit. Perferably a fully customizable suspension that can be adjusted to my own need.

What I would recommend YOU criticizers to do is point your front toes inwards and take it to autox or circuit runs. Hell, take it on a short drive in the mountains. You'll see the problem I'm trying to get.

racebum

if you don't expect to find reliable advice; why are you here?

a few of us are quite skilled in setting up a car

however, your post is more of a blob of text than specific questions

Zappythebum

^agreed. if you don't ask a specific question then don't expect a specific answer.

More like corner entry ***-slide Only kidding, you are of course correct. I was more referring towards a typical un-tuned suspension setup when i wrote my previous post, which would result in a typical understeer. Whereas I believe your post is more geared to a tuned suspension setup to have controlled oversteer.

SleeperGSR

Dont forget about vortex.com. that kinda looks like a veedub with thoes wheels

DAtegLs

the OP makes me laugh a little. you should get your setup rightfully tuned by someone who knows how. not just an alignment shop. do ALOT more research to.
mine is tuned for oversteer and i love it!

GagnarTheUnruly

iTrader: (3)

You aren't far from the truth LOL. And in my case, a setup tuned for oversteer means a pair of hard, worn tires are mounted on the back and fresh tires are on the front