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Bad Hesitation from Idle ((7 seconds!)

 
Old 07-09-2019, 05:46 PM
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Default Bad Hesitation from Idle ((7 seconds!)

I recently changed my timing belt with the Field Service Manual. I feel confident I have everything in order with that. Now my car starts right up, and maintains idle at around 1,500 RPMs. It actually sounds good at idle. But when I step on the pedal, it does nothing for about 7 seconds. Doesn't even rev. When I manipulate the throttle under the hood, it also hesitates. Here are other facts:
1. No check engine light or error codes. Had a P0108, which is high voltage/low vacuum, and replaced the MAP sensor. Same problem of severe hesitation exists.
2. All harnesses appear to be securely tightened.
3. No apparent vacuum leak. Sprayed carb cleaner over every hose while in idle, but no change in idle.
4. Put fuel injector cleaner in gas tank and drove car about 4 miles. It does accelerate and climb through the gears, albeit rough at times. I can get car to accept gas, now, though, which it didn't even do that so well a few days ago.
5. I pulled the 2 fuses (7.5 and 15 amp) that control the computer. Left out for 15 minutes and put back in. No change.

I would appreciate any feedback as it relates to troubleshooting my problem. Again, it starts right up, and there is no issues at idle. I pulled each plug wire individually, and naturally the engine runs rough with 1 out at a time. I did this to confirm that all plugs are good and working. New plug wires, too. I'm thinking something with the computer is not working right. Maybe the throttle position sensor?
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Old 07-10-2019, 12:01 PM
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Default Re: Bad Hesitation from Idle ((7 seconds!)

Originally Posted by Deanrocker View Post
I recently changed my timing belt with the Field Service Manual. I feel confident I have everything in order with that. Now my car starts right up, and maintains idle at around 1,500 RPMs. It actually sounds good at idle. But when I step on the pedal, it does nothing for about 7 seconds. Doesn't even rev. When I manipulate the throttle under the hood, it also hesitates. Here are other facts:
1. No check engine light or error codes. Had a P0108, which is high voltage/low vacuum, and replaced the MAP sensor. Same problem of severe hesitation exists.
2. All harnesses appear to be securely tightened.
3. No apparent vacuum leak. Sprayed carb cleaner over every hose while in idle, but no change in idle.
4. Put fuel injector cleaner in gas tank and drove car about 4 miles. It does accelerate and climb through the gears, albeit rough at times. I can get car to accept gas, now, though, which it didn't even do that so well a few days ago.
5. I pulled the 2 fuses (7.5 and 15 amp) that control the computer. Left out for 15 minutes and put back in. No change.

I would appreciate any feedback as it relates to troubleshooting my problem. Again, it starts right up, and there is no issues at idle. I pulled each plug wire individually, and naturally the engine runs rough with 1 out at a time. I did this to confirm that all plugs are good and working. New plug wires, too. I'm thinking something with the computer is not working right. Maybe the throttle position sensor?
Have you set the Ignition timing to factory spec with a timing light/gun? You should find the timing specs under the hood on the factory label.
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Old 07-10-2019, 03:44 PM
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Default Re: Bad Hesitation from Idle ((7 seconds!)

belt may have jumped a tooth, check crank/cam alignment.
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Old 07-10-2019, 04:04 PM
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Default Re: Bad Hesitation from Idle ((7 seconds!)

Would it idle perfectly if timing were off? Also, when I unplugged the TPS, it idled lower (500 rpm), and hesitation was almost 100 percent eliminated. Of course, the check engine light came on. It's much more drive-able with the TPS disconnected.

Do you guys still think it's timing related? Part of me wishes I would've never even brought that up in this post, as I'd like feedback to be more all-encompassing, rather than assuming something that was worked on produced the problem.
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Old 07-10-2019, 05:07 PM
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Default Re: Bad Hesitation from Idle ((7 seconds!)

Originally Posted by Deanrocker View Post
Would it idle perfectly if timing were off? Also, when I unplugged the TPS, it idled lower (500 rpm), and hesitation was almost 100 percent eliminated. Of course, the check engine light came on. It's much more drive-able with the TPS disconnected.

Do you guys still think it's timing related? Part of me wishes I would've never even brought that up in this post, as I'd like feedback to be more all-encompassing, rather than assuming something that was worked on produced the problem.
Looks like were at it again.., so seems you assembled the timing belt from the previous issue you had from timing skipping a tooth or 2 and assuming you did that correctly we are going to take your word that Mech. timing is set. Not sure why you didn't set the timing with the light after but this is very important. The engine will idle fine even if ignition timing is not set to factory spec, grab a timing gun and handle that.

Your engine should not drive at all with the TPS disconnected check the voltage closed and at WOT see what the voltage is at and if its at spec.

Its possible you switched the TPS plug and Map sensor plug! it happens all the time when people remove the harness plugs for whatever reasons. as they fit each other (same style plug) when they are switched you have very similar weird drivability conditions as you are. unplug them and switch them around and start the car see what happens.
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Old 07-10-2019, 05:34 PM
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Default Re: Bad Hesitation from Idle ((7 seconds!)

I followed the Field Service Manual to the letter. It made no mention of checking my work with a light. Yes, that would make us all feel warmer and fuzzier, but I prefer we proceed with the assumption timing is not the issue..

Though I appreciate you thinking outside of the box as far as the swapped harnesses, that's impossible. Why? The harness to the TPS will not reach the MAP sensor. Also, I'd prefer not to invest any more time discussing the possibility of a vehicle running without the TPS harness plugged into the TPS. Trust me. I drove around the block about 1.5 miles and it rode well overall. Acceleration wasn't perfect, but it was much, much better than the 7-second kick-in delay that occurs when the TPS harness is plugged into the TPS.

Maybe my ECU/ECM is shot. I can test the TPS per the FSM instructions tomorrow. I'm guessing the harness will show good. I can replace the TPS for $12.99 and have the part tomorrow. Perhaps that's worth it to just buy that. Did the same with the MAP, which didn't improve anything, but it's only $13.

I really don't want to buy one of those lights or bring it into a garage. Nor do I want to take off the valve cover for the 20th time. Especially now that I got the new gasket seated perfectly without a drop of oil being lost. I was meticulous with the timing. I had both cams at 12 o'clock with the first piston at TDC, as noted by mark on oil pump. After 6 revolutions it was still perfect. Tightened everything down and it started right up and sounds perfect.
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Old 07-10-2019, 06:46 PM
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Default Re: Bad Hesitation from Idle ((7 seconds!)

Originally Posted by Deanrocker View Post
I followed the Field Service Manual to the letter. It made no mention of checking my work with a light. Yes, that would make us all feel warmer and fuzzier, but I prefer we proceed with the assumption timing is not the issue..

Though I appreciate you thinking outside of the box as far as the swapped harnesses, that's impossible. Why? The harness to the TPS will not reach the MAP sensor. Also, I'd prefer not to invest any more time discussing the possibility of a vehicle running without the TPS harness plugged into the TPS. Trust me. I drove around the block about 1.5 miles and it rode well overall. Acceleration wasn't perfect, but it was much, much better than the 7-second kick-in delay that occurs when the TPS harness is plugged into the TPS.

Maybe my ECU/ECM is shot. I can test the TPS per the FSM instructions tomorrow. I'm guessing the harness will show good. I can replace the TPS for $12.99 and have the part tomorrow. Perhaps that's worth it to just buy that. Did the same with the MAP, which didn't improve anything, but it's only $13.

I really don't want to buy one of those lights or bring it into a garage. Nor do I want to take off the valve cover for the 20th time. Especially now that I got the new gasket seated perfectly without a drop of oil being lost. I was meticulous with the timing. I had both cams at 12 o'clock with the first piston at TDC, as noted by mark on oil pump. After 6 revolutions it was still perfect. Tightened everything down and it started right up and sounds perfect.

Bro if you haven't set the ignition timing with a timing gun/light timing wont be right!!! Ignition timing is separate from the mechanical timing!!!!! you MUST set the timing man come on bro.... [/QUOTE] I really don't want to buy one of those lights or bring it into a garage. Nor do I want to take off the valve cover for the 20th time. Especially now that I got the new gasket seated perfectly without a drop of oil being lost. I was meticulous with the timing. I had both cams at 12 o'clock with the first piston at TDC, as noted by mark on oil pump. After 6 revolutions it was still perfect. Tightened everything down and it started right up and sounds perfect.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what world you live in or what realm your from lol jk but a timing gun at Harbor freight is less than $20!! weighs less than 5 lbs and the size of a squirt gun WHY in the world would you not want to buy one use one and bring one in the garage???? Did you think it was something else?

You don't remove anything to set the timing man loosen the dizzy and hook up the gun and point it at the crank pulley, don't forget to put a paper clip in the the plug under the dash so the ECU doesn't adjust the ignition timing as your setting the timing.

Grab a multi meter and probe the wires and check the calibration on the TPS! it sounds like its off spec, they are installed with rivets, you can use a dremal and slice a notch in the middle and use a skinny flat head to un screw it and then you can use M8 bolts from AutoZone and use those instead of the OEM rivets. This allows you to remove and adjust the TPS easier.

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Old 07-10-2019, 09:56 PM
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Default Re: Bad Hesitation from Idle ((7 seconds!)

I didn't know the gun was that inexpensive. Do you find it surprising that the FSM instructions to change the timing belt do not make a mention of checking things with a light gun? Or would that be considered a separate aspect of the timing process? Just seems odd that you make it sound of utmost importance (even if the timing belt was changed precisely per FSM directions) but yet the FSM makes no mention of a light gun being needed to properly achieve timing.
So to be crystal clear, you believe the problems I'm having with hesitation and uneven "shifting" is a result of the timing belt not being properly in place? And your only other speculation was the TPS sensor might have been swapped with the MAP sensor (which has definitely not occurred).

I guess I was hoping someone would present other possible solutions before I go back to it being a timing problem. Tell me ... Why do you think my vehicle runs without the TPS harness connected to the TPS?

Also, why do you think the car behaves differently with the TPS intact (7 second hesitation when pressing pedal til it accelerates) vs. with it disconnected (almost instant acceleration)? Could a misaligned timing belt account for that?

I'm trying to exhaust other potential causes before I get the light gun.
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Old 07-10-2019, 10:17 PM
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Default Re: Bad Hesitation from Idle ((7 seconds!)

I just watched a good video on youtube on ignition timing. Pretty straight forward.

Video didn't mention this, but Is it accurate to say that whenever you change the timing belt, you will need to adjust the dizzy for proper ignition timing?
If so, I'm surprised the FSM doesn't state as much.

This seems pretty straight forward. In fact, prior to buying the gun, I might rotate the dizzy a bit just to see if that takes out the 7-second pause in acceleration (or makes it worse, though that seems improbable). I know you will tell me to just get the gun, which I certainly will do, but rotating the dizzy to see if there is a change in performance will be a good indicator that the problem is with ignition timing.
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Old 07-11-2019, 01:43 PM
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Default Re: Bad Hesitation from Idle ((7 seconds!)

Originally Posted by Deanrocker View Post
I just watched a good video on youtube on ignition timing. Pretty straight forward.

Video didn't mention this, but Is it accurate to say that whenever you change the timing belt, you will need to adjust the dizzy for proper ignition timing?
If so, I'm surprised the FSM doesn't state as much.

This seems pretty straight forward. In fact, prior to buying the gun, I might rotate the dizzy a bit just to see if that takes out the 7-second pause in acceleration (or makes it worse, though that seems improbable). I know you will tell me to just get the gun, which I certainly will do, but rotating the dizzy to see if there is a change in performance will be a good indicator that the problem is with ignition timing.

lol yes setting the Timing with the light gun is very important, anytime you change the belt or remove the distributor you need to check and re set the ignition timing, your issue sounds 95% to do with the ignition timing,

I believe you were or still are a bit confused with timing on the B series, there's the mechanical timing aspect which you already addressed where you align the engine at TDC and set the timing belt and tension. Now once that's done and the engine rotates nice and smooth you will need to grab the timing light and set the engines ignition timing. This is separate from the Mechanical timing. Make sure the engine is at OP temp, bypass the ECU plug under the dash so that when you adjust the timing the ECU doesn't go back and retard or advance the timing back. it sounds confusing but the ECU will do that if you don't use a paper clip and jump that service plug.

You should feel an immediate change in performance once the timing is set. I recently purchased a 2000 Honda Civic hatch back all stock for $1800 it had a check engine light when I purchased it, After checking codes it needed a new O2 sensor, once changed car ran fine, a bit sluggish but I figured its a single cam 1.6l they don't have much HP to begin with, well I grabbed my timing gun checked timing and that **** was way off!! re set the timing with the gun in about 5 mins, unplugged the paper clip and took it for a drive and I must of gained 20 hp lol car feels awesome and smooth like a babys *** cheeks, so Yes set the damn timing properly and don't go and move the dizzy to see if it helps the ECU will change the timing via ECU parameters so just do it the proper way by pass the service plug and adjust timing.

As far as the TPS sensor unplugged and driving is very odd, the ECU will have no signal for the TPS so the ECU will not know what amount of fuel to throw at the engine now its possible the ECu is running on some type of fail safe on the TPS but I have never heard of this, all I can advise is simply grab a multi meter and check the TPS calibration with the Throtle fully open then fully closed if its within the factory specs then the sensor is working if its off spec try adjusting the TPS like I mentioned and use bolts for future ease of removal or adjusting.
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Old 07-11-2019, 04:16 PM
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Default Re: Bad Hesitation from Idle ((7 seconds!)

Thanks for the info. I bought the gun for $30 at Harbor Freight with a 20% off coupon. Will be reading the instructions and addressing it within the next couple of hours. I am a bit confused about bypassing the ECM with the paperclip. Can't I just pull the 2 fuses under the hood that power the ECM? If the ECM isn't receiving power, I don't know how it could be impacted by the timing adjustment until the fuses are put back in. Please advise.
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Old 07-11-2019, 04:29 PM
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Default Re: Bad Hesitation from Idle ((7 seconds!)

I am confused how to do this:

" bypass the ECU plug under the dash so that when you adjust the timing the ECU doesn't go back and retard or advance the timing back. it sounds confusing but the ECU will do that if you don't use a paper clip and jump that service plug."

The FSM mentions bypassing the Service Check connector with a special tool. I think this is the thing I plug the OBDII scanner into, right? So do I just unplug it and bend a paperclip into two of the female holes on the now unplugged harness? I'm a bit confused. Sorry.

BTW, I do realize there's mechanical timing (of the belt) and ignition timing (of the dizzy). What I didn't realize is that whenever you change your timing belt you have to re-do the ignition timing.
"
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Old 07-11-2019, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: Bad Hesitation from Idle ((7 seconds!)

Originally Posted by Deanrocker View Post
I am confused how to do this:

" bypass the ECU plug under the dash so that when you adjust the timing the ECU doesn't go back and retard or advance the timing back. it sounds confusing but the ECU will do that if you don't use a paper clip and jump that service plug."

The FSM mentions bypassing the Service Check connector with a special tool. I think this is the thing I plug the OBDII scanner into, right? So do I just unplug it and bend a paperclip into two of the female holes on the now unplugged harness? I'm a bit confused. Sorry.

BTW, I do realize there's mechanical timing (of the belt) and ignition timing (of the dizzy). What I didn't realize is that whenever you change your timing belt you have to re-do the ignition timing.
"
Na no special tool needed just a paper clip! watch this video!

https://www.google.com/search?source...=1562894859871

there should be a jumper connector under the trim on the right side of your glove box(should be a blueish color). you need to jump the 2 pin harness with a paper clip or the honda connector. that will set your ecu into base timing mode(abd will show any DTC's that you may have. which will enable you to set timing correctly. if your dist. is fully advanced i recommend immediately moving it back due to the fact that you will be running way too advanced, could cause serious engine damage. let the car warm as stated before for best results. the ignition specs are 16deg. +or- 2deg BTDC...
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Old 07-11-2019, 05:42 PM
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Default Re: Bad Hesitation from Idle ((7 seconds!)

I read that (16 degrees).. I don't have degree marks, but it appears the red tick (not the white one), is the one that should be aligned with the indicator on the lower timing cover. The red tick is 16 degrees from the white mark, apparently.

I'll go look for that plug now. And a paper clip. Am hoping like hell this is all it needs, as I'm growing very weary of working on it.
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Old 07-11-2019, 05:46 PM
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Default Re: Bad Hesitation from Idle ((7 seconds!)

Originally Posted by Deanrocker View Post
I read that (16 degrees).. I don't have degree marks, but it appears the red tick (not the white one), is the one that should be aligned with the indicator on the lower timing cover. The red tick is 16 degrees from the white mark, apparently.

I'll go look for that plug now. And a paper clip. Am hoping like hell this is all it needs, as I'm growing very weary of working on it.
Indeed I bet you are, take it slow and it will run fine these cars are very simple to work on usually and its always something simple that's over looked like ignition timing. Usually the paint on the crank pulley wears off but the notch will be there, I repainted mine with nail polish. Make sure you watch the vid I shared from Eric the car guy! After the timing make sure to check the voltage on the TPS sensor! I have a huntch that it moved somehow and its off but maybe not but that's your next step.
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Old 07-11-2019, 07:37 PM
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Default Re: Bad Hesitation from Idle ((7 seconds!)

"... your issue sounds 95% to do with the ignition timing ..."
WRONG! 100% to do with ignition timing!!!
Am so ******* stoked that it finally runs!!!
When I first started out, I couldn't even see the tick mark on the harmonic balancer. So ... I got out the 19 mm and rotated it so I knew what I was looking for and how prominent it would be. The other thing I struggled with is I loosened 2 bolts where the dizzy is mounted, but naturally, it wouldn't budge, because there was THIRD BOLT on the back side closer to the windshield down low. All 3 were hard to loosen, but came undone. Once that was freed up, I could hear/see first-hand what rotating the dizzy just a little bit would do the the sound of the engine. I would have to look at the dizzy again to confirm whether I had to advance or retard the timing, but in essence, what happened was this ... red line was out of the picture in its current setup. As I rotated the dizzy, the red dash appeared!! However, even with it maxed out, I couldn't quite get it to below the indicator on the timing cover. Still, I would guess I'm within 2 degrees, but maybe that's wishful thinking. Bottom line is that it sounds great, accelerates great, runs great.
Do I wish I could've gotten the red dash ***** on directly aligned with the indicator? Hell yes. But I feel good that I could get it just a degree or two below it (red tick is closer to the front bumper than the windshield.
So if the red tick was way below the indicator, and now it's just a couple of degrees below it, did I advance or retard the ignition timing?
Also, does the fact that I can't adjust the dizzy so the red tick would float on either side of the indicator or be able to be ***** on, mean that my mechanical timing is off a bit?
Not looking for more problems, but I just want to ensure things will be good moving forward.
Oh .. I removed the paperclip from the blue harness. My check engine light is on, but I'm thinking I'll pull the 2 fuses under the hood to reset it. Is that OK?

I appreciate your help and staying adamant with your suggested course of action. You were dead right. I am surprised that the FSM didn't mention having to adjust the ignition timing after changing a belt, but perhaps they feel that's a common sense issue. Thanks again.
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Old 07-12-2019, 11:43 AM
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Default Re: Bad Hesitation from Idle ((7 seconds!)

Originally Posted by Deanrocker View Post
"... your issue sounds 95% to do with the ignition timing ..."
WRONG! 100% to do with ignition timing!!!
Am so ******* stoked that it finally runs!!!
When I first started out, I couldn't even see the tick mark on the harmonic balancer. So ... I got out the 19 mm and rotated it so I knew what I was looking for and how prominent it would be. The other thing I struggled with is I loosened 2 bolts where the dizzy is mounted, but naturally, it wouldn't budge, because there was THIRD BOLT on the back side closer to the windshield down low. All 3 were hard to loosen, but came undone. Once that was freed up, I could hear/see first-hand what rotating the dizzy just a little bit would do the the sound of the engine. I would have to look at the dizzy again to confirm whether I had to advance or retard the timing, but in essence, what happened was this ... red line was out of the picture in its current setup. As I rotated the dizzy, the red dash appeared!! However, even with it maxed out, I couldn't quite get it to below the indicator on the timing cover. Still, I would guess I'm within 2 degrees, but maybe that's wishful thinking. Bottom line is that it sounds great, accelerates great, runs great.
Do I wish I could've gotten the red dash ***** on directly aligned with the indicator? Hell yes. But I feel good that I could get it just a degree or two below it (red tick is closer to the front bumper than the windshield.
So if the red tick was way below the indicator, and now it's just a couple of degrees below it, did I advance or retard the ignition timing?
Also, does the fact that I can't adjust the dizzy so the red tick would float on either side of the indicator or be able to be ***** on, mean that my mechanical timing is off a bit?
Not looking for more problems, but I just want to ensure things will be good moving forward.
Oh .. I removed the paperclip from the blue harness. My check engine light is on, but I'm thinking I'll pull the 2 fuses under the hood to reset it. Is that OK?

I appreciate your help and staying adamant with your suggested course of action. You were dead right. I am surprised that the FSM didn't mention having to adjust the ignition timing after changing a belt, but perhaps they feel that's a common sense issue. Thanks again.
Great Its possible the Mech. timing is still off but sometimes like in Erics video you cant always get the ign. spot on, as long as your within or maxed in range your fine, If it drives better like it should and is currently just leave, give it a good tune up plugs ect. and leave it be,

To reset the ECU just unplug the neg. battery for 5 min the code should go away if it comes back just use a scanner to check it, I got a very cheap scanner I think at wallmart or harbor freight it was $30 a great bargain invest in one they come in handy.
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