mwylan

I have an old 1990 ACURA Integra GS 1.8 that I am pretty sure it has a bad #2 cylinder. I can not even start it with plug wire and spark plug in cylinder #2.
However, if I remove the fuel injector/plug and plug wire from #2 cylinder it will start right up - in less than 3 seconds, and yes sound somewhat like a tractor or a loud muffler.
But it does run.

I read that with the fuel injector removed no gas is being pumped into that cylinder.right.

Question: Is it unsafe to drive this way? I know it will have less power but also that the number piston/cylinder will not be used anymore.
Is their any way to quiet down the noise out of that #2 cylinder?

Comments welcome.

wunfstgsr

Really?? your asking if its ok to run the engine with a missfire on 3 cylinders? im just gonna leave it at that..

86azms3

No he's asking if he can run with one cylinder devoid of fuel or spark lol and the other 3 go.

OP sounds like a great idea, I don't know what could go wrong.

But besides being low on power, vibrating like a banshee, you would prematurely wear down the engine since it's not balanced. So main bearings, thrust bearings, journal bearings, probably increased wear on piston rings and walls since not balanced.

And if high speed operation there is a chance of really breaking something.

mwylan

I always thought that no question was a dumb question. Oh well. We all learn at different stages.

So, after reading reading and more reading and watching lots of youtube videos I actually think I have a bad fuel injector (maybe bad O ring) that may be flooding the engine when I have it all wired up correctly and using the #2 cylinder. I've done so many other checks for the obvious...good sparks, distributor cap, rotor, and more.

One more test I tried today was I inserted the #2 plug into the #2 cylinder without the plug wire or fuel injector attached and it wouldn't start up.
Then removed the spark plug and it started up on the 3 cylinders in about 3 seconds.

I believe the $55 to invest for one new injector may be worth a try. A few weeks ago I notice that when I barely moved the #2 connector I did see some gas leak out. Don't know how to do the leak down test. I can follow the Haynes Manual on how to replace the one injector as it doesn't look to bad.

Always comments welcome.

mwylan

Since the last post I have read that it is very common to have leaky injectors and that could be the cause of my cranking and not starting. Flooding that one cylinder.
I see that some local auto parts shops sell the fuel injector seal kits for about 7 bucks each. I would do all 4 injectors. My Haynes manual lays out very good instructions on how to install the new kits.

Thinking I can handle this repair and well worth a try.

Comments welcome.

tamboo

metal dental pick comes in handy for those injector clips.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4pc-Stainless-Steel-Dental-Picks-Probes-O-Ring-Remover-Lifetime-Warranty-/400933942499?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d598674e3

mwylan

Ok. Today I measured the resistance on all my fuel injectors and they were within specs. Range was 1.5 to 2.5 ohms and they were all around 2.5. Repeating this:
I've done so many other checks for the obvious...good spark at end of each plug wire 3/4" spark, distributor cap, rotor, and more. Yes, I my fuel pump hums for the 2 seconds and I know I am getting fuel. Think that rules out the main relay everyone talks about. I also have good cranking voltage out of my battery.

I did try to start it with all plugs/plugs wires/ and injectors in and then sprayed some STARTING FLUID in the throttle body and it still wouldn't start up.
Is it possible I have a bad area on my flywheel/starter?

Hey, 86azms3 you seem to know the most here about engines. Can you advise me what to try or check next? Anyone else. HELP please from all you HONDA and ACURA experts.....Thanks.

wunfstgsr

Maybe that injector is bad or clogged, If your engine still runs with the 3 cylinders i suspect you have spark obviously which will leave you to fuel. I really think you have a bad injector. Try swapping around the injector from another cylinder like #1 and move it to where the dead cylinder is then see if the problem moves with the change. Do the same with the spark wire. Also have you looked at the spark plug itself on the dead cylinder?

mwylan

Thanks for the quick response wunfstgsr. Appreciate it.

I have ruled out the spark plugs and spark plug wires. Tried at least 3 different set of spark plugs. Also took the plug wires and swapped them from cylinder 2 and 3 and the plug wire still worked fine on good cylinder. Also I did the spark test at the end of each plug and they all had a solid spark, so that should rule out everything inside the distributor such as coil and igniter. Right!

I have not swapped the injectors from one cylinder to the other yet, so that is a possibility. Thinking.

Somebody else suggested that when listening to it - they didn't like the way the starter sounds. Said there is a clear dropout every revolution and sent me a visual representation of the audio. That is why they suggested a bad area on my flywheel/starter. Is that actually a possibility? That is beyond my expertise.

I admit my first post about running on 3 cylinders was dumb, but as you can see now I am trying hard to troubleshoot this crazy problem.

wunfstgsr

Check that injector!

mwylan

A couple of questions.

Since I checked injector resistance that only checks the electrical parts of the fuel injector, it does not check the mechanical functioning of them. Right.
As long as I have the fuel rail off would it make sense to install a new seal kit on all 4 injectors? This is a new area for me.

I do believe my cylinders are becoming flooded and do not know the cause of it and have never done a leak down test before.

Is a leaky injector caused by bad o rings, and the 2 other seals on the injectors or does it usually require new injectors? The seal kits are not expensive at all. Thanks. Opinions and comments welcome.

rollinmyda

iTrader: (19)

Correct

Yes, especially if your existing seals are worn/degraded.

What is leading you to this conclusion? Immediately after running the engine if you pull the spark plug on the problem cylinder is it wet and smelling strongly of fuel?

A leak into the engine bay would be caused by failing seals. An injector that is stuck open and "leaking" into the engine would require servicing or replacement. I doubt that is the case unless you answered yes to my question of the plug smelling strongly of unburnt fuel.

Have you swapped the injectors between that cylinder and another yet? Have you done a compression test? That's where I would be starting. Isolate whether it is an injector problem or a cylinder problem and then move forward.

mwylan

Thanks for the reply and will try to answer in order.

I do believe that the seals are worn and have never been changed with 133K miles. My rationale.

I can start the car on 3 cylinders quickly and barely on 4 cylinders after cranking some 20 seconds or more. After removing the plug(s) in that short a time they are turning completely black which leads me to believe it is caused by too much fuel. Of course I clean them and then start more tests and they turn black again.

Yes to the question of the plug smelling strongly of unburnt fuel. Well, they are turning black.

I did run a compression test, both wet and dry, and all cylinders tested within specs.

So, will new seals makes sense on all injectors now? Thanks again.

rollinmyda

iTrader: (19)

Have you swapped the injectors between cylinders yet? That should be your next step before replacing anything.

mwylan

Ok. So now I am really stumped.

Today I correctly removed all the fuel injectors and swapped number 1 injector with number 2 injector.
At the same time I installed new seal kits, very easy, in all 4 injectors and the fuel rail slipped in and the rail bolted back as it should. Of course I did this with no battery cables connected.
Now when I turn the key to the on position before starting I do not hear the fuel pump for the required 2 seconds and I naturally didn't hear at the fuel filter.
And when I cranked it no fuel and naturally it just cranked.

Before as I originally posted this link you see I had the car running on 3 cylinders, so yes the fuel pump was working. It even worked with 4 cylinders but too much longer to crank.

This leads me to believe now that the fuel injection pgm-fi main relay fuse is not working.
How the heck could that go bad all of a sudden??? What could have possibly happened or what am I missing or what else could I check?

Help.....one crazy day.

mwylan

Ok. Better news now. The fuel pump had to be energized by leaving the key in the "on position" for about 20 and again it almost wanted to kick over.
It blackened the plugs again, all of them trying to crank and start. But no start.

Will wait an hour or so. At least I believe the EFI main relay and pump are ok now. Read that on a link about energizing the fuel pump after disconnecting the fuel rail. Will have to try it on the 3 cylinders again to see if it gas and then I know fuel is not an issue.

mwylan

Sorry for the overload of messages. Last one tonight.
So when I clean my spark plugs completely and then try to start it up for 30 seconds my spark plugs become completely black and fouled. Yes, that quick. Reading this then:

The causes of carbon fouling are:
1) Causes relating to the fuel system

• Carburettor maintenance fault - don't have one on the Acura.
• Injector fault - still unknown but I suspect no, swapped them around.
• Oxygen sensor fault (sensor fault) - Not sure???
• Clogging of the air cleaner element, etc.- yes, will remove and try to start it.

2) Causes relating to the ignition system

• Delay in the ignition timing - never removed distributor. ?/
• Plug heat range is too high - they are inexpensive NGK Plugs.

Just trying to supply for info for those who know a lot more than I do.

Always trying and appreciate advice.

wunfstgsr

do you have any check engine codes?

mwylan

I don't have a tester but I just read on how to test for them. Is this correct? Remember, i have a 1990 acura integra.

1990-1994 models locate the ECU under the dashboard on the passenger’s side beneath the carpet.

90-94 models:
The ECU will flash a long blink to represent the first digit of the code, then a series of short blinks to represent the second digit. For example, 1 long blink, followed by 4 short blinks equals code 14. Four long blinks followed by five short blinks equals code 45.


http://www.troublecodes.net/acura/

rollinmyda

iTrader: (19)

I'm a bit confused by what you wrote. You swapped injectors, replaced the injector seals and now the car won't start at all? You are getting fuel to any of the injectors or not?

Maybe you should post some history on the car. Is this a car you were driving regularly and suddenly started having problems one day? Or did you purchase the car in it's current condition? Did the problem start after a recent repair, etc? Based on that info, maybe we'll be able to help a bit more.

Definitely check to see if you're throwing a CEL as it will help guide you to the problem. Verify if you have fuel at the injectors or not. I would also suggest checking mechanical timing. You'll want to check ignition timing too but can't do that if the car won't run at all.

mwylan

I'm a bit confused by what you wrote. You swapped injectors, replaced the injector seals and now the car won't start at all? You are getting fuel to any of the injectors or not?
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Let me answer this first. Yes it is getting fuel again. I had to wait the 20 seconds or so for the fuel pump to become energized fuel and is now reaching the fuel filter and thus to the injectors. Will start again on the 3 cylinders and with lots of cranking will start on the 4 cylinders. - - -

Maybe you should post some history on the car. Is this a car you were driving regularly and suddenly started having problems one day? Or did you purchase the car in it's current condition? Did the problem start after a recent repair, etc? Based on that info, maybe we'll be able to help a bit more.


- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Purchased the car some 10 years ago and yes drove it regularly. Just minor problems in between here and there but ran fine. Some idle problems just a bit so I cleaned out the throttle body. It did break a timing belt and had that replaced over 1 year ago and still drove fine since that repair. Started having problems a few weeks ago losing water in the radiator, somewhat overheating and then I knew it blew a head gasket. Milky oil, oil and the oil cap, white smoke out of the tailpipe. Went the route of the Head Gasket Repair and followed directions to the “T”. After all that I came to the point where I could run it to the 3 cylinders a few weeks ago and no smoke out of the tailpipe, just tractor sounding, so I am fairly certain the Head Gasket repair may have worked since it wasn't blowing any white smoke out of the tailpipe. I know that “maintenance in a bottle” is not the right way, but the expense of fixing this 25 year old car was not economically worth the dollars and beyond my expertise.

But now I think I am close and yes I agree the “timing” may be the issue. From my latest post about the black carbon fouled spark plugs it seems to lead to a few issues. Today I will check the CEL codes with the directions I found online. The blinks of the code are supposed to tell me that - as it is located near the passenger side under the carpet.

***Pulled up the passenger carpet and saw the plate with the circled window where CEL codes would be. Turned the key to the on position an NO CODES.

Again I do have fuel at the injectors if I again can start it on 3 cylinders.
I am not giving up yet. Spark-Fuel-Air!! I know I have spark and possibly a bad Air filter, so will try again today briefly with no Air Filter.
I checked the compression on all cylinders (wet and dry) last week a couple of times and it measured good.

Lastly, I know when your timing can be so far off there is a manual way to get it back close enough to start it with the rotor pointed at number 1 cylinder on the compression stroke and the timing marks lined up. This would be a challenge for me but I remember watching my Dad do this years ago. It is supposed to work.
Right?

I hope my answers have been somewhat thorough.

You guys have all been helpful. Thanks again.

rollinmyda

iTrader: (19)

So when you swapped injectors did the dead cylinder remain the same or did it follow the injector?

All of your plugs are fouled? I thought only one was and that's how you were determining that you had a dead cylinder. Have you disconnected all of your spark plug wires from the distributor at once? If so you sure you have the firing order correct?

mwylan

I can truly say that all of my plugs are becoming fouled after I put clean ones back in and try retesting. That has happened almost every time the past week or so. .

I may have to do more testing because I cannot get it to start on 3 cylinders now with #2 injector and plug removed. I may have to start with number 1 cylinder and remove the injector and the plug/plug wire and thus test them all again from number 1 to number 4.

I don't have a solid answer yet to the first question about the bad cylinder.

This isn't easy to isolate.....patience I guess.

rollinmyda

iTrader: (19)

How about this one though?

mwylan

Firing order yes is 1-3-4-2. Correct. Checked many times.