vteczone

i have searched... but is there any write up on how to actually degreeing cam?or is there any book or article on the net on cam degreeing?something thatcam be relate to honda's engine preferably..

biotech0123

Good luck on you search bro fortunately I had Endyn show me how its done and its a bit easy once you see how its done. What I did to give me a general idea on how to do it was buy a degreeing kit that comes with a video on how to do it. Plus read some of those engine blueprinting books that they sell at Barnes & Nobles this will give you more knowledge on how to do it. To bad they are all domestic but all engines are the same, they just operate a little different. I hope this helps........

as_fast_as_u

i have this writeup in my book at home, but if you need me to , i can type it out for you and send via e-mail.....Its from the book called" high performance honda builder handbook" and the article is named: "how to baseline Adjustable cam gears"

as_fast_as_u

to "degree " a cam you would need a degree wheel, a piston stop, and a dial indicator, as well as some means to suspend the dial indicator over the cam so you can accurately measure valve lift...the first step is installing the cam and cam gears correctly.Next, attach the degree wheel to the cranckshaft and rig up a pointer. You can use welding rod or a wire hanger for this purpose. Rotate the engine so the #1 piston is at TDC on the compression stroke. Both valves should be closed. By referencing the timing marks on the crank puley, you should be able to get very close. Verify by carefully inserting a probe stick through the spurkplug hole to gauge piston position or just look into the chamber.Adjust the pointer and the timing wheel to zero or TDC.
Next, rotate the crankshaft about 20% opposite its normal direction of rotation.

Install the piston stop so it just touches the piston. Continue to spin the engine(opposite the engine rotation) untill the piston hits the stop. Mark that position on the degree wheel opposite the pointer. Spin the crankshaft teh opposite direction(normal engin rotation) untill the piston hits the stop. Mark this position on the degree wheel as well. Remove the piston stop. Rotate the zero point, or TDC of the degree wheel (DO NOT ROTATE THE CRANKSAFT) to the degree exactly between the two marks you just made with the piston stop installed...This is TDC.
The next step is to set the cams"straight up", that is, cam timing is neither advanced nor retarded. For SOHC engines you just need to allign the intake lobe centerline with the #1 cylinder at the degree specified on the cam card. For DOHC engines you need to do the same for the exhaust--align the cam so that max lift occurs as specified on cam card. On VTEC cams, you should use the low-lift cam lobes. However, if you really want to know what your engine is doing you should "degree" the high-lift lobes as well...
To do this, attach the dial indicator head so that it is in the same line as the valve. If there is a slight angle between the dial indicator's measuring rod and the valve stem centerline, your lift readings will be inaccurate. With overhead cam engines, max lift occurs when the valve stem is farthest away from the instrument. Therefore, you need to position the dial indicator so that it retains enough travel to register max lift.
To verify that the cam is adjusted "straight up" you need to rotate the engine untill the dial indicator changes direction. This is max lift and you should set the dial indicator face to zero. Reverse the rotation of the engine untill the dial indicator reads 0.100-inch. Now spin the engine in the normal direction until the indicator reads 0.050-inch. Record the degree wheel value. Rotate the engine in the normal direction until the dial indicator reads 0.050-inch on the closing side of the cam lobe. Record the degree value from the degree wheel. Add the numbers together and divide the sum by two. That will be the location in crankshaft degrees of maximum valve lifts.
You want the zero degree mark on your adjustible cam gears to place the cam lobe centerlines at the degree specified by the manufacturer. You may have to adjust the cam to achieve this but doing so will payoff big when you're tuning on the dyno or need to make changes at the dragstrip. In fact, it is a very good idea to verify the accuracy of all the timing marks using the procedure detailed above. If they are off slightely you can take notes or make your own markings.

mike_belben@yahoo.com

i linked a good article in here on my page

http://angeltowns.com/town/mik....html

vteczone

thanks.. now i understand them better

Natural Aspirations

Subscribed

h22 civic

good info

GSRCRXsi

so if you degree the cams, is it then unnecessary to tune the cams? as in you wont have to adjust the cam gears anymore? is that the point of tuning the cam gears? ive never really heard of "degreeing" the cams. i just thought you lined up the timing marks and put them in... looking for a little clearification. and yes, i read the links.

Oyvind Ryeng

You advance and retard the camgears while on the dyno to see if it makes more power. No book in the world can best real-world testing on the dyno.

GSRCRXsi

ok, then whats the point of cam degeeing? why cant you just line up the timing marks?

facts ive gathered:

-cam degreeing is used to set the cams in the correct position relative to the crank due to manufacturing tolerances
-similar setups (with the same cams) will like different cam gear specs for more power due to manufacturing tolerances.

so if you degree the cams, then tune it on the dyno, arent you changing the position of the cams relative to the crank? to get more power. doesnt this defeat the purpose to degreeing in the first place? im just a little confused here.

the way i see it, if you degree the cams, then set them to where they make the most power, in the end, wont they be in the same position if you just put them in according to the timing marks and then tuned on the dyno?

Oyvind Ryeng

Degreeing in a cam as per mfg. specs is supposed to be a good starting point. However, dependig on three hundred million other unknown factors the mfg. can't predict, advancing or retardig the cams from their original degreed-in postition can or can not make even more power, depending on the specific setup.

GSRCRXsi

so am i right in my assumption that both degreeing and setting to max power by dyno, and setting to timing marks, then setting to max power on the dyno will result in the same setting?

GSRCRXsi

bump for some late night guys

GSRCRXsi

up

brokeHonda

http://www.webcaminc.net/degreeing.html

unclebenwho

From my understanding the whole point to degreeing cams is to make sure the manufacturer gave you the right cam, and to make sure all the specs are what you want. By degreeing a camshaft you can figure out all kinds of information like Intake and Exhaust centerline, lobe separation angle, when the intake and exhaust valves open and close, duration, lift, and overlap. I hope this helps you. If you have any other questions don't hesitate to ask. Marc.

GSRCRXsi

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by brokeHonda &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">http://www.webcaminc.net/degreeing.html</TD></TR></TABLE>
ive already read that, and that does not answer my question.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by unclebenwho &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">From my understanding the whole point to degreeing cams is to make sure the manufacturer gave you the right cam, and to make sure all the specs are what you want. By degreeing a camshaft you can figure out all kinds of information like Intake and Exhaust centerline, lobe separation angle, when the intake and exhaust valves open and close, duration, lift, and overlap. I hope this helps you. If you have any other questions don't hesitate to ask. Marc.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i do not believe that degreeing does this. from what i understand the point of degreeing is to make sure the cams are installed in the correct orientation in relation to the crank. ie, that when the crank is at TDC, the cams are at TDC. articles like the one linked above state that simply lining them up as per timing marks may be off by a few degrees, and that degreeing makes sure it is all in allignment to the degree.

now my question still stands...
if...

you set the cams by the timing marks, then set them to the setting which makes the most power on dyno

will they be in the same position if...

you set the cams by degreeing, then set them to the setting which makes the most power
?

hopefully breaking the question up like this will help clear any confusion as to what exactly im asking. in my mind, the answer is yes, becasue the same motor will make the most power at the same cam settings, so in the end, it wont matter if you degree or go by the timing marks, if you dyno tune it. correct?

unclebenwho

So you are trying to tell me that you do not find all of that stuff out by degreeing a cam? I think that you are probably wrong on that. I watched a HOW TO DEGREE A CAMSHAFT video in my custom engine building class at the HIGH PERFORMANCE RACING SCHOOL that I attended. That's weird because in the video that the Degree wheel company sent us, the guy stated all those reasons are why you degree a camshaft. So I must be a moron for listening to him and the company that makes the degree wheels that everyone uses. I'll try to pay more attention to the people that do not make the equipment, and those who have most likely never even degreed a camshaft let alone ever built an engine. WTF was I thinking.

Oh yeah not to mention the fact that my instructor, who just so happens to be a machinist who has owned his own shop and who has built race engines for 20+ years, gave me a camshaft and a worksheet that had blanks for all the things I told you about like Int. and exh. centerline, lobe separation angle..., then I had to take the cam that was in a block out and put the one that he gave me in, then I had to degree it myself. I am almost certain that this is why you degree a cam. If that is not true then why the expletive would they teach this at a HIGH PERFORMANCE RACING COLLEGE?

My instructor must be an idiot and the guys that make the degree wheels must be stupid also. I'll try to make sure I listen to more people on Honda-Tech that think they know what they are talking about because they have a high post count.


Modified by unclebenwho at 10:45 PM 4/2/2006

GSRCRXsi

dude no need to take offense. theres proably similar termonology, but it should be pretty clear that thats NOT what my question is asking.

taken from the link above, from a company who actually MAKES cams so i think they have an idea on what they are talking about
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Degreeing In Your Camshaft means synchronizing the camshaft's position with the crankshaft. A few degrees of misalignment can affect the engine's operation dramatically. If there were no manufacturing tolerances, you would only need to line up the marks on the timing chain sprockets and the cam would be degreed, but with a group of components (the camshaft, crankshaft, timing chain, and sprockets) all with their own standards and tolerances that when installed, can stack up against you. You can never be sure that the cam is in it's correct position. Always degree in your Web Cam Racing Cam for best performance. </TD></TR></TABLE>

again, my question has nothing to do with measuring the cam, and that should be pretty clear. wether degreeing the cams is also a phrase used to measure them is irrelevant, as again, my question has NOTHING to do with that. thanks.

brokeHonda

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by unclebenwho &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">From my understanding the whole point to degreeing cams is to make sure the manufacturer gave you the right cam, and to make sure all the specs are what you want. By degreeing a camshaft you can figure out all kinds of information like Intake and Exhaust centerline, lobe separation angle, when the intake and exhaust valves open and close, duration, lift, and overlap. I hope this helps you. If you have any other questions don't hesitate to ask. Marc.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This statement has more TRUE info than he can manage I guess. Good statement!

GSRCRXsi; please read past threads (archived) to find your answer. In short (from what I have read), the max power obtained on a dyno will not be the same as the effecient max power achieved from cam degreeing.

unclebenwho

Quote, originally posted by unclebenwho »
From my understanding the whole point to degreeing cams is to make sure the manufacturer gave you the right cam, and to make sure all the specs are what you want. By degreeing a camshaft you can figure out all kinds of information like Intake and Exhaust centerline, lobe separation angle, when the intake and exhaust valves open and close, duration, lift, and overlap. I hope this helps you. If you have any other questions don't hesitate to ask. Marc.


<U>i do not believe that degreeing does this. </U>

I believe this was your response to what I typed.

GSRCRXsi

and i said in my second post, its a misunderstanding in terminology. no need to take offense but again, im not talking about measuing the cam specs.

the point im getting at is that degreeing (in the sense im talking about) seems to be an uneccessary step when you are just going to change it to make max power, right?

broke, i have searched and read, and none answered this specific question, hence, the reason i asked.

unclebenwho

So you are reffering to "Degreeing camshafts" as setting them at a corrilating timing mark to the crankshaft? Ex. Crank and cams at TDC right?

If this is what you are reffering to as degreeing cams and the question that you want answered is: Will this be the same setting(TDC for crank and TDC for the cams) as if you were to set the cams to max power on a dyno?

For max power I do not believe that the cams would match the crank at TDC. Although it would depend on what type of application you are running (turbo, nitrous, n/a, supercharged).

Engines are designed from the factory to create good fuel mileage, they are not designed to create the most amount of power. To create and fine tune for the most amount of power, most likely the cams will either need to be advanced or retarded (depending on what kind of setup you are running).

If for max power you set your cams to TDC in line with the crank, how would you be making more power? Unless your new cams have a different lift, duration..etc.

All I'm trying to say is that if you want max power out of an engine you are more than likely going to have to advance or retard your cam(s).

And by advancing or retarding your cams you are simply opening or closing your intake and exhaust valves earlier or later in coorilation with the stock setting.

I hope this answers your Question!

Just to let you know Honda does not use sprokets, and chain. They use gear(s) and a belt.

GSRCRXsi

im not, intentionally trying to use the wrong terminology to try to confuse anyone, i just want it made clear what im asking. the reason i use that term is because everyone else seems to.

my question pertains to the procedure described here -&gt;http://www.webcaminc.net/degreeing.html

all i want to know is if this procedure is unnecessary if you are just going to set the cams to max power on a dyno. it says the reason for the procedure in that link is because timing marks on the cam and cam gears can be off by a few degrees. but in my mind if you are just going to change it anyway then the whole rocedure seems pointless, right? all im trying to see is if this procedure is useless or not. this all stems from other posts where people are having cam related problems and someone asks if they degreed in the cams, and links the article i have linked. i looked at it, had never heard of it before, and wondered if it was necessary, that is all.

and yes i know hondas use a timing belt and gears...dont really know what lead you to believe i thought otherwise.