-- Rocker Arms -- Any secrets behind them? - Honda-Tech

EnjoyTheRideDC2 · 02-25-2007, 07:10 AM

I'm just wondering if there are any tricks to making an OEM rocker arm better than it already is? I've seen aftermarket "rollers" and the spoon modified set, just trying to get some insight. Thanks.

ChickenH · 02-25-2007, 08:49 AM

I would be interested in this also.

Because for most people the crane/ferrea type roller rockers and proprietary cams aren't really an option at 2500.00 plus standalone ecu tuning etc.. I was talking to ferrea on the phone the other day about the rockers asking if they have ever been heavily used on a road race engine with say 10 k of race miles on it over 5 years or so and he said" they have been used for a few road race events but mostly Drag car track only engines that do not actually see too many miles. Basically trying to talk me out of buying a set for street track use. He also talked about idle being tough with low rpm in less than perfect conditions. which makes sense but was disappointing.

EnjoyTheRideDC2 · 02-25-2007, 09:33 AM

What i'm looking for is maybe a tip on making them lighter to put less stress on the valvetrain and LMA, or something that could serve as a benefit somehow. I've just been looking at many aspects of the engine, and haven't heard much about rocker arms. I mean, i've heard of grinding them for clearance when using specific cam setups, but nothing much further than that.

So does the extra BLING serve as a grill for our B series heads when the valve cover is removed, or was it polished in that manner to reduce friction when in motion?

EnjoyTheRideDC2 · 02-25-2007, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChickenH

I would be interested in this also.

Because for most people the crane/ferrea type roller rockers and proprietary cams aren't really an option at 2500.00 plus standalone ecu tuning etc.. I was talking to ferrea on the phone the other day about the rockers asking if they have ever been heavily used on a road race engine with say 10 k of race miles on it over 5 years or so and he said" they have been used for a few road race events but mostly Drag car track only engines that do not actually see too many miles. Basically trying to talk me out of buying a set for street track use. He also talked about idle being tough with low rpm in less than perfect conditions. which makes sense but was disappointing.

Yeah, looking into rollers dont make them too streetable. ..I could be wrong, but it looks more designed for the 1320.

Natural Aspirations · 02-25-2007, 09:57 AM

Balancing the rockers and removing the casting marks could be of benefit, I really do not see any benefit of the polishing.

ipodhustle · 02-25-2007, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnjoyTheRideDC2

Yeah, looking into rollers dont make them too streetable. ..I could be wrong, but it looks more designed for the 1320.

yah, i remember looking into some aftermarket rocker arms (i think) and it raised idle above 2grand or something lol. or was it aftermarket lmas..i forget

lohatch · 02-25-2007, 11:37 AM

i've thought about this also, but i think if you wanted to get significant weight out of the OEM rockers i would tig them together. i thought about machining aluminum pins(you could probably flip the stock ones around) to lock the pads together and slip it on the rockershaft to weld them so they didnt move and then drill out the pin and machine off material in places to lighten them. of course then you would only be running on the vtec lobe. but then you could run any shelf cam without getting custom ones to go with your custom roller rockers. but i havent thought seriously enough about doing this to look at all the oiling system in the rockers to see what would be affected/modified.

salman · 02-25-2007, 11:42 AM

also want to know if there can be any modification can take place in rocker arms

high_revs · 02-25-2007, 11:48 AM

subscribing, i've always wondered about something like this.......

EnjoyTheRideDC2 · 02-25-2007, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Natural Aspirations

Balancing the rockers and removing the casting marks could be of benefit, I really do not see any benefit of the polishing.

If the rockers were to be balanced, what would they balance them with or for? or are they trying to achieve a uniform weight across all 3 rockers? I think the reason for the polishing is since Spoon techs spent the time removing casing and excess metal, the only options left were to re-coat them and add weight back or polish the metal and only continue to shed off weight.?

?

Natural Aspirations · 02-25-2007, 01:03 PM

I would say balance the rockers to a uniform weight, you will never get any of the 3 to weigh the same amount

EnjoyTheRideDC2 · 02-25-2007, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Natural Aspirations

I would say balance the rockers to a uniform weight, you will never get any of the 3 to weigh the same amount

I agree on the uniform weight....but I wonder what the uniform weight would change as far as performance? I mean, say you have 8 rocker arm sets balanced, what variable would perform better had they not been balanced?

I'm not trying to prove you wrong or anything, I'm really just trying to figure out if there is a way of improving the rocker system and how its done. I began to think that shaving down the casing where it protruded up from the metal, would make the rocker lighter, therefore making the stress on the valvetrain less as well...?

GarageAlchemist · 02-25-2007, 02:56 PM

something new.. what about coatings on the rocker arms.. and what can you use to polish the contact areas at home diy, some 1500 and 2000 grit ?

lohatch · 02-25-2007, 03:11 PM

you could maybe run an oil shedding coating on them. i think the big gain would be in the lightened valvetrain and being able to control it though. i dont know if you could run a softer spring if you lightened the rockers significantly, or if they have very little to do with the needed spring pressure when compared to the cam, valve weight, retainer weight,etc.

OH_1fstgsr · 02-25-2007, 03:51 PM

I am currently having my head rebuilt. Instead of Ti retainers I am going to lighten up the rocker arms. I am also having the rocker arm shaft treated with a anti-friction treatment.

Lightened Rocker Arms
Detailed Wear Inspection
9 Grams Lighter than Standard Rocker Arm
Ground for Maximum Weight Savings at all lift levels
Available for Honda / Acura
Includes B16A B17A B18C H22A VTEC Forged Pistonss

Competition Includes;
10 Grams Lighter than Standard Rocker Arm
Balancing to .25 Grams Available

clarkekent13 · 02-25-2007, 03:57 PM

To help reduce wear?

http://www.theoldone.com/compo...t.htm

also they mention coatings as well- anyone ever try anti friction coatings on rocker arms? And wouldn't it wear off the pad pretty quickly? (i'm an admitted noob when it comes to coatings)

lohatch · 02-25-2007, 04:07 PM

they must have just started offering that huh?? i havent seen it on the site before. maybe i didnt look in the right place. or maybe i just never clicked on the oil adapter link for lsvtecs.

EnjoyTheRideDC2 · 02-25-2007, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clarkekent13

To help reduce wear?

http://www.theoldone.com/compo...t.htm

also they mention coatings as well- anyone ever try anti friction coatings on rocker arms? And wouldn't it wear off the pad pretty quickly? (i'm an admitted noob when it comes to coatings)

Well, not so much to reduce wear on the rockers. I'm looking for something more along the lines of this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by OH_1fstgsr

I am currently having my head rebuilt. Instead of Ti retainers I am going to lighten up the rocker arms. I am also having the rocker arm shaft treated with a anti-friction treatment.

Lightened Rocker Arms
Detailed Wear Inspection
9 Grams Lighter than Standard Rocker Arm
Ground for Maximum Weight Savings at all lift levels
Available for Honda / Acura
Includes B16A B17A B18C H22A VTEC Forged Pistonss

Competition Includes;
10 Grams Lighter than Standard Rocker Arm
Balancing to .25 Grams Available

Now, with that being said, will a lightened rocker arm effect the valve train in the same manner as replacing the retainer to titanium? Actually, I think that they serve seperate purposes, as the ti retainer is also supposed to be stronger than the particle metal retainer from the OE manufacturer. I mean, they'll both lighten up the valvetrain assembly, but will the lightened rocker reduce the need for a ti retainer??

bluedlude · 02-25-2007, 05:25 PM

OK, i just weighed a set of my H22 rocker arms.

primary = 89.4 grams
mid = 97.9 grams
secondary = 89.7 grams

heres how i see it. the mass of the rocker has to counteract the mass of the cam. im sure youve noticed that the primary is the smallest lobe(referring to mass), followed by the secondary, followed by the VTEC lobe. so to me , it makes sense that they vary in weight. id leave em as far as balancing is concerned.

i would however like a set of roller rockers. and ideally id play with the geometry, but that would mean changing the head

EnjoyTheRideDC2 · 02-25-2007, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clarkekent13

To help reduce wear?

http://www.theoldone.com/compo...t.htm

also they mention coatings as well- anyone ever try anti friction coatings on rocker arms? And wouldn't it wear off the pad pretty quickly? (i'm an admitted noob when it comes to coatings)

I'm sure coatings would have to wear over time, The theory of a starvation of oil in the head linking to worn cam journals and rocker pads has been around for some time. Good link though on the oil plumbing kit.

Its got me thinking about getting one, On top of wear, I'm wondering of some performance tweak out there to even further compliment valvetrain.

bluedlude · 02-25-2007, 05:38 PM

i actually just payed for a sandwich adapter that i plan on using to plumb some lines to the valve cover

EnjoyTheRideDC2 · 02-25-2007, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluedlude

OK, i just weighed a set of my H22 rocker arms.

primary = 89.4 grams
mid = 97.9 grams
secondary = 89.7 grams

heres how i see it. the mass of the rocker has to counteract the mass of the cam. im sure youve noticed that the primary is the smallest lobe(referring to mass), followed by the secondary, followed by the VTEC lobe. so to me , it makes sense that they vary in weight. id leave em as far as balancing is concerned.

i would however like a set of roller rockers. and ideally id play with the geometry, but that would mean changing the head

I can understand that...

So if we set balancing aside, would reducing the overall weight of each rocker provide an added gain in performance? For instance, reducing each rocker by 6 grams, would the outcome be benefitial, harmful, or just plain out pointless?

02-25-2007, 07:10 AM	#1
EnjoyTheRideDC2 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Left Coast, High Altitude, Top Floor Posts: 5,596	-- Rocker Arms -- Any secrets behind them? I'm just wondering if there are any tricks to making an OEM rocker arm better than it already is? I've seen aftermarket "rollers" and the spoon modified set, just trying to get some insight. Thanks. __________________ DB Squad! - Member #1 (I still need to get the hang of this vBulletin mess.)

02-25-2007, 08:49 AM	#2
ChickenH Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA Posts: 297	Re: -- Rocker Arms -- Any secrets behind them? (EnjoyTheRideDC2) I would be interested in this also. Because for most people the crane/ferrea type roller rockers and proprietary cams aren't really an option at 2500.00 plus standalone ecu tuning etc.. I was talking to ferrea on the phone the other day about the rockers asking if they have ever been heavily used on a road race engine with say 10 k of race miles on it over 5 years or so and he said" they have been used for a few road race events but mostly Drag car track only engines that do not actually see too many miles. Basically trying to talk me out of buying a set for street track use. He also talked about idle being tough with low rpm in less than perfect conditions. which makes sense but was disappointing. __________________ ________________________ but someone will come in and say im wrong now. http://images.honda-tech.com/set1/smile/emdgust.gif 1989 CRX SI all motor built b16a hondatas300 2008 ELEMENT SC

02-25-2007, 09:33 AM	#3
EnjoyTheRideDC2 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Left Coast, High Altitude, Top Floor Posts: 5,596	Re: -- Rocker Arms -- Any secrets behind them? (ChickenH) What i'm looking for is maybe a tip on making them lighter to put less stress on the valvetrain and LMA, or something that could serve as a benefit somehow. I've just been looking at many aspects of the engine, and haven't heard much about rocker arms. I mean, i've heard of grinding them for clearance when using specific cam setups, but nothing much further than that. So does the extra BLING serve as a grill for our B series heads when the valve cover is removed, or was it polished in that manner to reduce friction when in motion? __________________ DB Squad! - Member #1 (I still need to get the hang of this vBulletin mess.)

02-25-2007, 09:57 AM	#5
Natural Aspirations Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Bustin Balls in Central, Pa, usa Posts: 2,362	Balancing the rockers and removing the casting marks could be of benefit, I really do not see any benefit of the polishing. __________________ I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.

02-25-2007, 11:37 AM	#7
lohatch Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: the backwoods, usa Posts: 2,605	Re: (Natural Aspirations) i've thought about this also, but i think if you wanted to get significant weight out of the OEM rockers i would tig them together. i thought about machining aluminum pins(you could probably flip the stock ones around) to lock the pads together and slip it on the rockershaft to weld them so they didnt move and then drill out the pin and machine off material in places to lighten them. of course then you would only be running on the vtec lobe. but then you could run any shelf cam without getting custom ones to go with your custom roller rockers. but i havent thought seriously enough about doing this to look at all the oiling system in the rockers to see what would be affected/modified. __________________ RDR 12.009@113, 11.53@121 ....all motor streetcars Modern Automotive Performance (763)545-3800 http://images.honda-tech.com/set1/smile/emthup.gif

02-25-2007, 11:42 AM	#8
salman Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: karachi, sindh, pakistan Posts: 1,760	also want to know if there can be any modification can take place in rocker arms __________________ 51. And indeed We bestowed aforetime on Ibrâhim (Abraham) his (portion of) guidance, and We were Well-Acquainted with him (as to his Belief in the Oneness of Allâh, etc.). 52. When he said to his father and his people: "What are these images, to which you are devoted?" 53. They said:"We found our fathers worshipping them." 54. He said: "Indeed you and your fathers have been in manifest error." Sale, All Honda ECu All Dohc Vtec Obd1 and OBD0 Dizzy All MAP sensor and TPS,

02-25-2007, 11:48 AM	#9
high_revs Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: New Jersey Posts: 9,143	subscribing, i've always wondered about something like this....... __________________ certified honda tech

02-25-2007, 01:03 PM	#11
Natural Aspirations Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Bustin Balls in Central, Pa, usa Posts: 2,362	I would say balance the rockers to a uniform weight, you will never get any of the 3 to weigh the same amount __________________ I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.

02-25-2007, 02:56 PM	#13
GarageAlchemist * B A N N E D * Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: ma Posts: 0	Re: (EnjoyTheRideDC2) something new.. what about coatings on the rocker arms.. and what can you use to polish the contact areas at home diy, some 1500 and 2000 grit ?

02-25-2007, 03:11 PM	#14
lohatch Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: the backwoods, usa Posts: 2,605	Re: (GarageAlchemist) you could maybe run an oil shedding coating on them. i think the big gain would be in the lightened valvetrain and being able to control it though. i dont know if you could run a softer spring if you lightened the rockers significantly, or if they have very little to do with the needed spring pressure when compared to the cam, valve weight, retainer weight,etc. __________________ RDR 12.009@113, 11.53@121 ....all motor streetcars Modern Automotive Performance (763)545-3800 http://images.honda-tech.com/set1/smile/emthup.gif

02-25-2007, 03:51 PM	#15
OH_1fstgsr Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Dublin, OH, USA Posts: 287	Re: (lohatch) I am currently having my head rebuilt. Instead of Ti retainers I am going to lighten up the rocker arms. I am also having the rocker arm shaft treated with a anti-friction treatment. Lightened Rocker Arms Detailed Wear Inspection 9 Grams Lighter than Standard Rocker Arm Ground for Maximum Weight Savings at all lift levels Available for Honda / Acura Includes B16A B17A B18C H22A VTEC Forged Pistonss Competition Includes; 10 Grams Lighter than Standard Rocker Arm Balancing to .25 Grams Available __________________ "An Action without Philosophy is a Lethal Weapon, Philosophy without Action is a Worthless." - Soichiro Honda 1999 GSR 182whp/134tq highway 31.4mpg 1993 Del Sol Si 121whp/102tq highway 38.6mpg

02-25-2007, 03:57 PM	#16
clarkekent13 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: north of seattle, wa Posts: 194	Re: (OH_1fstgsr) To help reduce wear? http://www.theoldone.com/compo...t.htm also they mention coatings as well- anyone ever try anti friction coatings on rocker arms? And wouldn't it wear off the pad pretty quickly? (i'm an admitted noob when it comes to coatings)

02-25-2007, 04:07 PM	#17
lohatch Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: the backwoods, usa Posts: 2,605	Re: (clarkekent13) they must have just started offering that huh?? i havent seen it on the site before. maybe i didnt look in the right place. or maybe i just never clicked on the oil adapter link for lsvtecs. __________________ RDR 12.009@113, 11.53@121 ....all motor streetcars Modern Automotive Performance (763)545-3800 http://images.honda-tech.com/set1/smile/emthup.gif