Why Degree Camshafts - Honda-Tech

Master of the Universe · 02-02-2007, 01:12 PM

Why Degree Camshafts

Why degree camshafts and check v-v, p-v, ret-seal, rocker-ret, coil bind, lobe-rocker contact, lobe runout, cam straightness, cam bearing clearance.

Is it really necessary?? Sounds like alot of work to figure out 4 numbers besides the clearances.

Isn't taking a poll on cam gear settings sufficient for the DIY'er needs. Does Blox B = Skunk2 Stage 2 = modified JUN3 = Wicked Industries Stage 2 = CAT Stage 2 = Crespo Stage 2 = BC IV.

Can't you just look at markings on the end of the stick or look on the box and then ask for specs on the internet.

Yay for people who can step up. XXX for people he can't.

Cosworth Engineering

as opposed to gansta engineering

pr0honda · 02-02-2007, 01:16 PM

if you are running large camshafts it is a must to degree them.. by degreeing them you know exactly where they put your clearances..

shawn

vti444 · 02-02-2007, 01:34 PM

if your gonna do a job do it properly, if that means being anal about it then i trust that person more so

Master of the Universe · 02-02-2007, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pr0honda

if you are running large camshafts it is a must to degree them.. by degreeing them you know exactly where they put your clearances..

shawn

Which are the "large" camshafts that we should be careful of?

My new motto is "RPM" doesn't ruin peoples motor - improper installation of cams and timing belts does more damage than any incremental increase in rpm ever will do.

soulpwr · 02-02-2007, 02:25 PM

Ultimately you do it to make sure your sh*t wont blow up. And the large cams to beware of are all those rocket motorsports cams

miller · 02-02-2007, 03:39 PM

It has nothing to do with the size of the camshaft, this is something i have heard people say you dont need to do and that its over rated in an honda engine becasue you wont gain any power by doing it and yad yada yada. But that is totally false as most people should know. It does not matter the size of the cam in question when degreeing it in, that is all irrevelevant as the degreeing of your Camshaft simply means that you are synching the cams position with the cranks. A few degrees off can affect the engine's operation drastically. It does not matter how big or small the cam is.

Those pimp cam gears everybody buys are just for show

skunked · 02-02-2007, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Lackey

My new motto is "RPM" doesn't ruin peoples motor - improper installation of cams and timing belts does more damage than any incremental increase in rpm ever will do.

amen brotha.

Nice thread BTW

Master of the Universe · 02-02-2007, 04:25 PM

Actually, another good question is why even degree stock cams on a bone stock motor?

strict 9 ef · 02-02-2007, 04:25 PM

CAT stage 2 any info on these?

DonF · 02-02-2007, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Lackey

Actually, another good question is why even degree stock cams on a bone stock motor?

Do not have to. They come from Honda and are perfect. JDM OEM buddie. If it were ment to be done, Honda would have done it. If any of you cam guy's could get indexing right, like Honda we could all use stock cam gears like Honda wanted.

Aquafina · 02-02-2007, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonF

we could all use stock cam gears like Honda wanted.

Hey, I know of some aftermarket cams like that...

Scott_Tucker · 02-02-2007, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Lackey

Actually, another good question is why even degree stock cams on a bone stock motor?

By advancing the intake cam you will increase the effective compression ratio - the compression ratio that is measured from the point of the intake valve closing, to TDC. Your effective compression ratio is very important to the production of power in an engine. It is the inverse of the expansion ratio. For a 4 Valve aluminum head like a Honda, your effective compression ratio should be around 8 - 8.5:1. The higher the effective compression, the more efficiently the engine makes power. By advancing the intake cam, the intake valve will open earlier. This means it's distance from the top of the piston at the point of intake valve closing thru to TDC, is longer, which increases your effective compression. If you have an older engine that has lost a small amount of compression, advancing the intake cam can help bring back that high effective compression ratio and it will make more power. If you advance the cam too much, though, the engine may detonate and you will need to back the cam off.

ToeJam · 02-02-2007, 09:23 PM

Here’s a better question. Why do YOU do it rocket?

I would like to see the tools that you use and hear the method involved when degreeing the camshafts.

Master of the Universe · 02-02-2007, 09:47 PM

Who's Rocket? Sounds like some Cali spin doctor.

Anyways, I haven't degreed any cams yet. I will be soon. I have one of these big degree wheels (I've got a blue not red as pictured).

rochesterricer · 02-02-2007, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toekneevwj

Here’s a better question. Why do YOU do it rocket?

I would like to see the tools that you use and hear the method involved when degreeing the camshafts.

You want some pimp tools for degreeing, talk to Mike Belben:

http://www.newenglandhondarebuilders.com/

Master of the Universe · 02-02-2007, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonF

Do not have to. They come from Honda and are perfect. JDM OEM buddie. If it were ment to be done, Honda would have done it. If any of you cam guy's could get indexing right, like Honda we could all use stock cam gears like Honda wanted.

What's indexing? We use an index plate made 295 years ago. The person who made the plate died about a year ago so we don't dare take the index plate off of "big red", Van Norman camshaft grinder.

In all seriousness though, it's nice to know what honda put their cams in at. There is a difference in lobe centers of the VTEC and Primary Lobes.

ImportechPerformance · 02-03-2007, 07:41 AM

I really want to learn and thats why I try reading these posts but, its like reading a book with half of the sentences taken out.

All in all they scare me...

goforbroke · 02-03-2007, 08:05 AM

Wow an informative post. I'm glad someone finally talked about degreeing cams because I had no clue why you needed to do it.

b20vtech · 02-22-2007, 06:26 PM

i wish there was a step by step on how to properly degree these skunk pro2 cams that i have...... a video would be perfect

The Destroyer · 02-22-2007, 06:36 PM

I always thought it was because aftermarket cams didnt have dead nuts timing? (not sure if that is correct terminology) That among tuning reasons is why you get adj gears, to correct the imperfect settings.

Ill just let the big dogs explain it and learn why.

mx621 · 02-22-2007, 06:37 PM

can someone please explain why this is so important. when a company sets these specs for degreeing the cams. that was what worked best in their testing on that particular setup. if u have a different exaust/intake/bore,stroke than what they tested it may not yeild the best results for your particular setup.. so i dont see why this is so important, unless it is used as a starting point for tuning the cam gears on the dyno..

The Destroyer · 02-22-2007, 06:43 PM

I think so. I mean lets say you buy a cam that is +5 degrees(prob a bit excessive

) when the cam gear is saying it is at tdc. Lets say you go to advance it a certain amount and then have valve clearance issues. Im sure the AM big dogs can correct us all, they just enjoy our educated guesses.

revolt_allmotor · 02-22-2007, 06:44 PM

Rocket I respect your knowledge but the tone of all your recent posts has become really condescending. It's like you're talking down to everyone, testing them to see if they have the "answer" and only if they do are they considered "cool" or something.

What if you were looking at a contractor's message board for info about remodeling your house, and the people on there started talking down to you like you were a child because you didn't know a lot about the work they did? Wouldn't that kind of piss you off?

I admit there are a few idiots in this forum but a lot of people are here to learn, everyone has to start somewhere.

As far as the question, I don't know a lot but I believe that you need to know when the valve events (ie INT open and close, EX open and close) occur and where the lobe centers are and you won't know that if you don't degree the cams. Of course you would also have to know what to do with that info and I really don't...

So that means I'm probably not "cool" enough to get talked to like a regular person and not a little kid?

02-02-2007, 01:12 PM	#1
Master of the Universe Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 6,493	Why Degree Camshafts Why Degree Camshafts Why degree camshafts and check v-v, p-v, ret-seal, rocker-ret, coil bind, lobe-rocker contact, lobe runout, cam straightness, cam bearing clearance. Is it really necessary?? Sounds like alot of work to figure out 4 numbers besides the clearances. Isn't taking a poll on cam gear settings sufficient for the DIY'er needs. Does Blox B = Skunk2 Stage 2 = modified JUN3 = Wicked Industries Stage 2 = CAT Stage 2 = Crespo Stage 2 = BC IV. Can't you just look at markings on the end of the stick or look on the box and then ask for specs on the internet. Yay for people who can step up. XXX for people he can't. Cosworth Engineering as opposed to gansta engineering __________________ Semi-Retired as of April 25, 2007. Don't bother to PM me. I am tired of internet fools. Contact via RM Dealer or e-mail.

02-02-2007, 01:16 PM	#2
pr0honda Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: middleburg, florida, usa Posts: 470	Re: Why Degree Camshafts (Don Lackey) if you are running large camshafts it is a must to degree them.. by degreeing them you know exactly where they put your clearances.. shawn __________________ DFE enterprises fully built race engines and cylinder heads contact don flores (donf) on the board.

02-02-2007, 03:39 PM	#6
miller H-T Sponsor Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: long island, ny, united states Posts: 10,674	Re: Why Degree Camshafts (soulpwr) It has nothing to do with the size of the camshaft, this is something i have heard people say you dont need to do and that its over rated in an honda engine becasue you wont gain any power by doing it and yad yada yada. But that is totally false as most people should know. It does not matter the size of the cam in question when degreeing it in, that is all irrevelevant as the degreeing of your Camshaft simply means that you are synching the cams position with the cranks. A few degrees off can affect the engine's operation drastically. It does not matter how big or small the cam is. Those pimp cam gears everybody buys are just for show __________________ www.NRGtechracing.com my car isnt fast enough to put the times in my signature......

02-02-2007, 04:25 PM	#8
Master of the Universe Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 6,493	Re: Why Degree Camshafts (skunked) Actually, another good question is why even degree stock cams on a bone stock motor? __________________ Semi-Retired as of April 25, 2007. Don't bother to PM me. I am tired of internet fools. Contact via RM Dealer or e-mail.

02-02-2007, 04:25 PM	#9
strict 9 ef Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: toronto Posts: 212	Re: Why Degree Camshafts (Don Lackey) CAT stage 2 any info on these?

02-02-2007, 01:34 PM	#3
vti444 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: u.k, u.k Posts: 1,911	if your gonna do a job do it properly, if that means being anal about it then i trust that person more so

02-02-2007, 09:23 PM	#13
ToeJam Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: usa Posts: 512	Re: Why Degree Camshafts (Don Lackey) Here’s a better question. Why do YOU do it rocket? I would like to see the tools that you use and hear the method involved when degreeing the camshafts.

02-02-2007, 09:47 PM	#14
Master of the Universe Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 6,493	Re: Why Degree Camshafts (toekneevwj) Who's Rocket? Sounds like some Cali spin doctor. Anyways, I haven't degreed any cams yet. I will be soon. I have one of these big degree wheels (I've got a blue not red as pictured). __________________ Semi-Retired as of April 25, 2007. Don't bother to PM me. I am tired of internet fools. Contact via RM Dealer or e-mail.

02-03-2007, 07:41 AM	#17
ImportechPerformance Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Aka 3l Redskoolingbus Posts: 3,187	Re: Why Degree Camshafts (Don Lackey) I really want to learn and thats why I try reading these posts but, its like reading a book with half of the sentences taken out. All in all they scare me... __________________ ImporTech Performance <FONT COLOR="blue">Vist our new Ebay store!</FONT> http://stores.ebay.com/Importech-Performance

02-03-2007, 08:05 AM	#18
goforbroke Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Killadelphia, PA, United States Posts: 5,390	Re: Why Degree Camshafts (ImportechPerformance) Wow an informative post. I'm glad someone finally talked about degreeing cams because I had no clue why you needed to do it. __________________ <U>Destroy everything,obliterate what makes us weak</U> Give them nothing, but take everything.

02-22-2007, 06:26 PM	#19
b20vtech Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: OUTLAWZ PERFORMANCE, CA, usa Posts: 2,262	Re: Why Degree Camshafts (goforbroke) i wish there was a step by step on how to properly degree these skunk pro2 cams that i have...... a video would be perfect __________________ vouch list: BMo Tuning, manoy WTB: ITR intake manifold, ITR/CTR cams, ITR cat-converter

02-22-2007, 06:36 PM	#20
The Destroyer Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Comb as a Balm Posts: 7,085	Re: Why Degree Camshafts (b20vtech) I always thought it was because aftermarket cams didnt have dead nuts timing? (not sure if that is correct terminology) That among tuning reasons is why you get adj gears, to correct the imperfect settings. Ill just let the big dogs explain it and learn why.

02-22-2007, 06:37 PM	#21
mx621 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: little place called HELL, us Posts: 928	Re: Why Degree Camshafts (b20vtech) can someone please explain why this is so important. when a company sets these specs for degreeing the cams. that was what worked best in their testing on that particular setup. if u have a different exaust/intake/bore,stroke than what they tested it may not yeild the best results for your particular setup.. so i dont see why this is so important, unless it is used as a starting point for tuning the cam gears on the dyno.. __________________ I pray cancer on theives, and the mothers that gave birth to them... 81.5x89, 12:1, pro2's = 225/154 jeff evans tuned NEW BEST-12.69 @ 107.5 w/ best trap of 108.8mph in a 2550lb w/ driver DC2

02-22-2007, 06:43 PM	#22
The Destroyer Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Comb as a Balm Posts: 7,085	Re: Why Degree Camshafts (mx621) I think so. I mean lets say you buy a cam that is +5 degrees(prob a bit excessive ) when the cam gear is saying it is at tdc. Lets say you go to advance it a certain amount and then have valve clearance issues. Im sure the AM big dogs can correct us all, they just enjoy our educated guesses.

02-22-2007, 06:44 PM	#23
revolt_allmotor Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: 909 all motor mafia,, CA, USA Posts: 4,521	Re: Why Degree Camshafts (Don Lackey) Rocket I respect your knowledge but the tone of all your recent posts has become really condescending. It's like you're talking down to everyone, testing them to see if they have the "answer" and only if they do are they considered "cool" or something. What if you were looking at a contractor's message board for info about remodeling your house, and the people on there started talking down to you like you were a child because you didn't know a lot about the work they did? Wouldn't that kind of piss you off? I admit there are a few idiots in this forum but a lot of people are here to learn, everyone has to start somewhere. As far as the question, I don't know a lot but I believe that you need to know when the valve events (ie INT open and close, EX open and close) occur and where the lobe centers are and you won't know that if you don't degree the cams. Of course you would also have to know what to do with that info and I really don't... So that means I'm probably not "cool" enough to get talked to like a regular person and not a little kid? __________________ FS!!! Koyo aluminum radiator with front-mounted fan (EG/DC)