The Corner Entry Dance in Regards to Braking, Rev Matching, & Down Shifting - Honda-Tech

Adam. · 12-08-2006, 07:01 AM

I'm trying to find out what method everyone is using for most corner entries. In regards to corners where there is a downshift requirement:

1 Gear Down Shift:
Are you simply braking hard and shifting down with no rev matching? Of all the videos I'm watching it appears this way, while I can't hear any rev matching, I know it could still be happening. I've noticed that if I downshift fast enough while braking I can get into gear without rev matching and without disrupting the car very much (a tiny jerk).

2-3 Gear Shift:
Do you run down each gear or are you simply selecting the end result gear, rev matching (or not), and going directly to that?

My goal here is to ditch rev matching all together as with a few small experiments I've been doing it seems as if I can do it without disrupting the car. The reason I want to ditch the rev matching is that a. I have a bad ankle and it's uncomfortable and b. I seem to roll on & off the brake as I am blipping the throttle. I think there would be more benefit in having a even brake the entire time rather than an even rev match.

What do you guys think?

thawley · 12-08-2006, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam.

1 Gear Down Shift:
Are you simply braking hard and shifting down with no rev matching?

Some guys do it that way. Some do not. I heel-toe and rev-match, but there are some plenty fast guys who never learned to do so. Rev matching is much easier on the gears if done properly.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">2-3 Gear Shift:
Do you run down each gear or are you simply selecting the end result gear, rev matching (or not), and going directly to that?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Again, different drivers do it differently. Carroll Smith (Tune to Win, Prepare to Win, Drive to Win etc.) has written that there is no good reason for going thru each gear and that the gearbox doesn't care, as long as the revs are matched to the final gear. Driver preference and skill matter more. And frankly, I think most amateur racers have and easier time of doing one gear at a time. Hard to get "lost" in the gears that way.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My goal here is to ditch rev matching all together as with a few small experiments I've been doing it seems as if I can do it without disrupting the car.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think you need more practice and perhaps a peddle adjustment. The links below are helpful. After that, it just requires a LOT of practice.
http://turnfast.com/tech_drivi...shtml
http://turnfast.com/tech_drivi...shtml

If you have a disability (ankle) then maybe you simply are not physically capable of the heel-toe and destined to a life of failed gearboxes. Might want to speed your time learning to do your own rebuilds, instead. If, however, your ankle just gets sore, then a determined plan to master the art of heel-toe rev matching might be enough. In your early attempts to do it, you are likely moving muscles in a way they are not used to moving. Might take some time to build up the muscle memory.

My 2¢

Adam. · 12-08-2006, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thawley

Some guys do it that way. Some do not. I heel-toe and rev-match, but there are some plenty fast guys who never learned to do so. Rev matching is much easier on the gears if done properly.

Again, different drivers do it differently. Carroll Smith (Tune to Win, Prepare to Win, Drive to Win etc.) has written that there is no good reason for going thru each gear and that the gearbox doesn't care, as long as the revs are matched to the final gear. Driver preference and skill matter more. And frankly, I think most amateur racers have and easier time of doing one gear at a time. Hard to get "lost" in the gears that way.

I think you need more practice and perhaps a peddle adjustment. The links below are helpful. After that, it just requires a LOT of practice.
http://turnfast.com/tech_drivi...shtml
http://turnfast.com/tech_drivi...shtml

If you have a disability (ankle) then maybe you simply are not physically capable of the heel-toe and destined to a life of failed gearboxes. Might want to speed your time learning to do your own rebuilds, instead. If, however, your ankle just gets sore, then a determined plan to master the art of heel-toe rev matching might be enough. In your early attempts to do it, you are likely moving muscles in a way they are not used to moving. Might take some time to build up the muscle memory.

My 2¢

Cool, I'll check out those links. As far as my ankle, I've torn the ligaments in it about 5 times now from repeated sprains from sports. It sucks, but eh, what're you gonna do?

FlyZlow · 12-08-2006, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam.

Cool, I'll check out those links. As far as my ankle, I've torn the ligaments in it about 5 times now from repeated sprains from sports. It sucks, but eh, what're you gonna do?

I have a similar problem with my right ankle. I don't have 100% range of motion anymore. I still agree with Thawley though. With the right pedal setup and some practice, you can find a setup that is easier for you and it will increase the life of your gearbox. Not to mention, when you are really on the edge of traction, even that little grab from the wheels moving faster than the motor can cause you to slide. Most people will tell you that you should practice heel-toe on your daily driver, but when you have an ankle injury, it's almost impossible to do it on a stock pedal setup. So, just get a good set of pedals (if you don't have one already) on the track car and have at it until you get it right.

Edit: BTW - what works for me is a pedal setup that has a kick-out at the bottom of the gas pedal that can be angled towards the brake pedal. That allows me to keep my foot very straight and put the side of my foot on the gas pedal while braking (instead of turning it so that my heel is on the pedal), then I just dip the outside of my foot to blip the throttle. Depending on your range of motion, something like that might be easier for you also.

Andrie Hartanto · 12-08-2006, 09:23 AM

I agree with Thawley in the most part. see below for some additonal info.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam.

1 Gear Down Shift:
Are you simply braking hard and shifting down with no rev matching? Of all the videos I'm watching it appears this way, while I can't hear any rev matching, I know it could still be happening. I've noticed that if I downshift fast enough while braking I can get into gear without rev matching and without disrupting the car very much (a tiny jerk).

I always rev-match on all downshift. I notice as I get better, I can barely tell on the video anymore. thawley is also right that some guys do it some don't. I've known a really fast guy that has never done rev-matching. Whatever works with you. Rev-matching definitely easy on the gears. I used my B-series tranny for 2.5 years racing. Then Kenji used it for .5 yrs before it start to develop problem.

My K-series tranny is 2.5yrs old as well. I'm still using it and no problem. Haven't even been open even to inspect it.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
2-3 Gear Shift:
Do you run down each gear or are you simply selecting the end result gear, rev matching (or not), and going directly to that? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Again, Thawley is right. Carroll Smith books is a must have IMHO. I've do that in certain corners. The corner I know I've always down shift from 4 directly to 2 is Turn 2 at Sears Point.

That being said, I like to avoid that and really like to row the gears if I have time to do so. Rowing the gears have some advantage, provided you have time to do it.
1. Reduce the chance of mis-shift
2. help to stabilize the car under braking
3. It sounds so cool

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
My goal here is to ditch rev matching all together as with a few small experiments I've been doing it seems as if I can do it without disrupting the car. The reason I want to ditch the rev matching is that a. I have a bad ankle and it's uncomfortable and b. I seem to roll on & off the brake as I am blipping the throttle. I think there would be more benefit in having a even brake the entire time rather than an even rev match.

What do you guys think?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Whaever works with you. There is not a universal technique that will work for everyone.

Modified by Andrie Hartanto at 9:47 AM 12/8/2006

chad · 12-08-2006, 09:41 AM

My comments.....practice practice practice.....on the street on the track...practice practice practice

Kamin · 12-08-2006, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyZlow

Edit: BTW - what works for me is a pedal setup that has a kick-out at the bottom of the gas pedal that can be angled towards the brake pedal

there was a razo or some pedal that had one of those. i could never find it so i just angled the gas pedal at the bottom twords the brake.

works fine.

Adam. · 12-08-2006, 10:39 AM

Any good brands of pedals or do you just use whatever fits your needs?

Todd Reid · 12-08-2006, 10:41 AM

hi.

i'm totally with chad and andrie; all of my cars, even the super beater $280 cars that i drive, i have set up with pedal-helpers, just like my racecar, so that i can heel and toe every shift. every day, every time. its beyond second nature for me now (been like this since 1995).

see below for a fairly recent vid of me in my H1 car. i always go down thru the gears, heel n toeing. i also always go up totally "granny shifting" and being real gentle with the car. i think if you listen, you can probably hear the match revving? the camera had slipped down a tad, and i think you can clearly see my right foot on the gas, and can see my left leg depressing the clutch during shifts. along with the audio, this might help a bit to see how it goes?

the track that day was very very cold (it was in the 20s when we woke up and i had to scrape the windshield) and consequently very slippery. brake lockup was very easy to have happen, and wheelspin out of the tighter stuff was also likely to happen. smooth smooth was the way to be that day!

i have never, ever had to replace a tranny, or clutch for that matter, in any of my cars. that means, street cars, race cars, etc. oh, except for one; one time my probe developed a crack in the tranny and the oil leaked out. not really related to shifting, tho! all my racecars have the stock clutch and pp in them, too. synchros are all orig in all my cars. trannies shift perfectly, like butter.

i believe that this is due to the match revving and "gentleness". i think they are very good practices to get into.

i think that the smoothness up and down thru the gears is even more important in rain or otherwise slippery track situations.....

good luck and have fun practicing!

todd

Kamin · 12-08-2006, 10:46 AM

i have these

thawley · 12-08-2006, 10:48 AM

On a somewhat related topic, what differences (if any) have any of you hero-shifting, Senna types noticed by running different gear oils in your trannies? I have always just run Honda MTF. Any of you tried Red-line or other more slippery stuff?

chad · 12-08-2006, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thawley

On a somewhat related topic, what differences (if any) have any of you hero-shifting, Senna types noticed by running different gear oils in your trannies? I have always just run Honda MTF. Any of you tried Red-line or other more slippery stuff?

i've tried:
honda mtf
mobile 10/30
mobile 30
redline mtf
redline 10/30
redline 30

i cna't tell a difference but i can tell a difference going from OLD Fluid to NEW fluild....i like the old fluid better...probably because it is alittle broken down and not so thick...but i don't know if it really matters

Andrie Hartanto · 12-08-2006, 10:56 AM

I've always use redline before. I've been using Kaaz on my K20 because I run kaaz LSD

Todd Reid · 12-08-2006, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thawley

On a somewhat related topic, what differences (if any) have any of you hero-shifting, Senna types noticed by running different gear oils in your trannies? I have always just run Honda MTF. Any of you tried Red-line or other more slippery stuff?

on all my honda trannies (a d series, two b series, and a k series) i have always run 10w-40 Valvoline Durablend motor oil. its a synth blend, so it can take some heat, but it also is not so slippery that the synchros don't work right. feels super duper great when shifting. i change it once a year. goes in looking like honey. comes out looking like honey. i probably don't even need to change it that often! oh, and the price is right at $2.79 per qt! when the tranny is absolutely ice cold on a cold day, it is a tiny bit stiff for the first lap. after that, its perfect.

todd

Jack Black · 12-08-2006, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam.

Any good brands of pedals or do you just use whatever fits your needs?

Just make your own: http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=287833

coneheadsracing · 12-08-2006, 12:41 PM

I used to run 10w 30 quaker state, never liked the looks of it when it came out. I run GM synchromesh now. Always comes out in good shape.

I saw in racing series, forget which one now. I think it was some ex football player, had a bad ankle, and they let him have a button on the shifter. It would rev up the car, so he could rev-match still. Would def. make rev matching easier

I'm looking to make some of my own pedals, I suffer from longer legs and big feet, i just can't get it down with stock pedals.

Todd Reid · 12-08-2006, 12:48 PM

hi again.

here is a pic of my Probe Racecar pedals:

here is a pic of my Honda Racecar pedals:

here is a pic of my daily beater 626 pedals:

and finally here is a pic of my "nice car" EVO pedals:

as you can see, every car i own that i drive has pretty much the same pedal setup. i drive 30k+ miles per year, so i get lots of practice heel-n-toeing! btw, i don't really use the heel and toe; i have size 11 feet, so i can use the right half and the left half of my right foot while keeping it pretty straight up in orientation, especially considering the "pedal helpers" i use.

oh, and the cost of the "pedal helpers" was zero; i used some scrap metal laying around and some scrap fasteners!

good luck and happy practicing!

todd

Todd Reid · 12-08-2006, 01:05 PM

hey again!

forget watching the vid i posted of me driving my POS H1 car; watch the one below; it'll teach you all you need to know about heel-n-toe and also a bit of left-foot-braking, too

=

and here:
mms://a178.v096910.c9691.e.vc.akamaistream.net/7/178/9691/v0009/audi.download.akamai.com/9691/history/04_mh/07_rallye_physik_b.wmv

i am not worthy!

todd

PS those spectators must have really trusted his driving, no?

Modified by Todd Reid at 9:28 PM 12/8/2006

nonsense · 12-08-2006, 01:13 PM

^ does Todd own a vacuum?

I use stock pedals in my Civic, I've never felt a need for anything else, but since it's street and HPDE driven, I use skate style shoes with flat, wide soles. I also use the sides of me feet. I'm pretty sure if I used a driving shoe I would be better off with a little spacer like those above.

I thought I knew how to heel-toe until I attended Bondurant. They showed me how to really do it and now it's a snap. It's now 2nd nature and I have to think about it if I don't want to blip the throttle. LIke every said, practice as much as you can. Sit in your car, running in neutral and practice putting pressure on the brakes and blipping the throttle without it effecting the pressure you're applying to the brake.

granracing · 12-08-2006, 02:02 PM

I've been doing heel-toe braking for several years and like others said, it becomes 2nd nature. It's funny though, I only do this on the street and not on the track.

When I first started racing, I sought out additional coaching (not just the HPDE instructor type thing), and recommended not to do it the type of cars we're racing. There's just no need. Others, such as some drivers here, really recommend it. I don't.

5th to 3rd - one chance for a misshift. 5th to 4th to 3rd - two chances for a misshift. It's also more time consuming. The key is doing it smoothly and late in the braking process. If you do it early, it surely will disrupt the car. Again, there will be differing opinions.

Mario_D · 12-08-2006, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ada

12-08-2006, 07:01 AM	#1
Adam. HTGTR2 Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 13.9 at 101.76mph, 2420lbs, FL, USA Posts: 5,676	The Corner Entry Dance in Regards to Braking, Rev Matching, & Down Shifting I'm trying to find out what method everyone is using for most corner entries. In regards to corners where there is a downshift requirement: 1 Gear Down Shift: Are you simply braking hard and shifting down with no rev matching? Of all the videos I'm watching it appears this way, while I can't hear any rev matching, I know it could still be happening. I've noticed that if I downshift fast enough while braking I can get into gear without rev matching and without disrupting the car very much (a tiny jerk). 2-3 Gear Shift: Do you run down each gear or are you simply selecting the end result gear, rev matching (or not), and going directly to that? My goal here is to ditch rev matching all together as with a few small experiments I've been doing it seems as if I can do it without disrupting the car. The reason I want to ditch the rev matching is that a. I have a bad ankle and it's uncomfortable and b. I seem to roll on & off the brake as I am blipping the throttle. I think there would be more benefit in having a even brake the entire time rather than an even rev match. What do you guys think? __________________ Ron Paul 2008 - Don't Tread on Me The Vertical Summit - A Forum for Sports Performance

12-08-2006, 09:41 AM	#6
chad Moderator Join Date: May 2001 Location: Browns Summit, NC, USA Posts: 10,632	Re: The Corner Entry Dance in Regards to Braking, Rev Matching, & Down Shifting (Adam.) My comments.....practice practice practice.....on the street on the track...practice practice practice __________________ First: HPDE Sponsored RACER 001

12-08-2006, 10:39 AM	#8
Adam. HTGTR2 Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 13.9 at 101.76mph, 2420lbs, FL, USA Posts: 5,676	Re: The Corner Entry Dance in Regards to Braking, Rev Matching, & Down Shifting (Kamin) Any good brands of pedals or do you just use whatever fits your needs? __________________ Ron Paul 2008 - Don't Tread on Me The Vertical Summit - A Forum for Sports Performance

12-08-2006, 10:41 AM	#9
Todd Reid Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Elkton, MD, 21921 Posts: 1,422	Re: The Corner Entry Dance in Regards to Braking, Rev Matching, & Down Shifting (chad) hi. i'm totally with chad and andrie; all of my cars, even the super beater $280 cars that i drive, i have set up with pedal-helpers, just like my racecar, so that i can heel and toe every shift. every day, every time. its beyond second nature for me now (been like this since 1995). see below for a fairly recent vid of me in my H1 car. i always go down thru the gears, heel n toeing. i also always go up totally "granny shifting" and being real gentle with the car. i think if you listen, you can probably hear the match revving? the camera had slipped down a tad, and i think you can clearly see my right foot on the gas, and can see my left leg depressing the clutch during shifts. along with the audio, this might help a bit to see how it goes? the track that day was very very cold (it was in the 20s when we woke up and i had to scrape the windshield) and consequently very slippery. brake lockup was very easy to have happen, and wheelspin out of the tighter stuff was also likely to happen. smooth smooth was the way to be that day! i have never, ever had to replace a tranny, or clutch for that matter, in any of my cars. that means, street cars, race cars, etc. oh, except for one; one time my probe developed a crack in the tranny and the oil leaked out. not really related to shifting, tho! all my racecars have the stock clutch and pp in them, too. synchros are all orig in all my cars. trannies shift perfectly, like butter. i believe that this is due to the match revving and "gentleness". i think they are very good practices to get into. i think that the smoothness up and down thru the gears is even more important in rain or otherwise slippery track situations..... good luck and have fun practicing! todd __________________ Todd Reid driver of the 'Stien "to the wood!"

12-08-2006, 10:46 AM	#10
Kamin Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 8,892	Re: The Corner Entry Dance in Regards to Braking, Rev Matching, & Down Shifting (Adam.) i have these __________________ 1997 Nissan 240sx - Ls1 2005 Nissan Titan - yes, it has a smaller engine than my car.

12-08-2006, 10:48 AM	#11
thawley Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 1,325	Re: The Corner Entry Dance in Regards to Braking, Rev Matching, & Down Shifting (Todd Reid) On a somewhat related topic, what differences (if any) have any of you hero-shifting, Senna types noticed by running different gear oils in your trannies? I have always just run Honda MTF. Any of you tried Red-line or other more slippery stuff? __________________ E. John Thawley III Striving for clarity one issue at a time

12-08-2006, 10:56 AM	#13
Andrie Hartanto Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: concord, CA, USA Posts: 2,413	I've always use redline before. I've been using Kaaz on my K20 because I run kaaz LSD __________________ www.prima-racing.com RedZone \| CT Engineering \| Rota Wheels \| SUPERTECH \| Wicked Tuning \| Carbotech \| HASPORT \| JRZ Suspension \| SROmagazine

12-08-2006, 12:41 PM	#16
coneheadsracing Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Right Here, MI, world Posts: 1,341	Re: The Corner Entry Dance in Regards to Braking, Rev Matching, & Down Shifting (Jack Black) I used to run 10w 30 quaker state, never liked the looks of it when it came out. I run GM synchromesh now. Always comes out in good shape. I saw in racing series, forget which one now. I think it was some ex football player, had a bad ankle, and they let him have a button on the shifter. It would rev up the car, so he could rev-match still. Would def. make rev matching easier I'm looking to make some of my own pedals, I suffer from longer legs and big feet, i just can't get it down with stock pedals.

12-08-2006, 12:48 PM	#17
Todd Reid Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Elkton, MD, 21921 Posts: 1,422	Re: The Corner Entry Dance in Regards to Braking, Rev Matching, & Down Shifting (Jack Black) hi again. here is a pic of my Probe Racecar pedals: here is a pic of my Honda Racecar pedals: here is a pic of my daily beater 626 pedals: and finally here is a pic of my "nice car" EVO pedals: as you can see, every car i own that i drive has pretty much the same pedal setup. i drive 30k+ miles per year, so i get lots of practice heel-n-toeing! btw, i don't really use the heel and toe; i have size 11 feet, so i can use the right half and the left half of my right foot while keeping it pretty straight up in orientation, especially considering the "pedal helpers" i use. oh, and the cost of the "pedal helpers" was zero; i used some scrap metal laying around and some scrap fasteners! good luck and happy practicing! todd __________________ Todd Reid driver of the 'Stien "to the wood!"

12-08-2006, 01:05 PM	#18
Todd Reid Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Elkton, MD, 21921 Posts: 1,422	Re: The Corner Entry Dance in Regards to Braking, Rev Matching, & Down Shifting (Todd Reid) hey again! forget watching the vid i posted of me driving my POS H1 car; watch the one below; it'll teach you all you need to know about heel-n-toe and also a bit of left-foot-braking, too = and here: mms://a178.v096910.c9691.e.vc.akamaistream.net/7/178/9691/v0009/audi.download.akamai.com/9691/history/04_mh/07_rallye_physik_b.wmv i am not worthy! todd PS those spectators must have really trusted his driving, no? Modified by Todd Reid at 9:28 PM 12/8/2006 __________________ Todd Reid driver of the 'Stien "to the wood!"

12-08-2006, 01:13 PM	#19
nonsense Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Sasquatch, OR Posts: 3,756	Re: The Corner Entry Dance in Regards to Braking, Rev Matching, & Down Shifting (Todd Reid) ^ does Todd own a vacuum? I use stock pedals in my Civic, I've never felt a need for anything else, but since it's street and HPDE driven, I use skate style shoes with flat, wide soles. I also use the sides of me feet. I'm pretty sure if I used a driving shoe I would be better off with a little spacer like those above. I thought I knew how to heel-toe until I attended Bondurant. They showed me how to really do it and now it's a snap. It's now 2nd nature and I have to think about it if I don't want to blip the throttle. LIke every said, practice as much as you can. Sit in your car, running in neutral and practice putting pressure on the brakes and blipping the throttle without it effecting the pressure you're applying to the brake. __________________ http://images.honda-tech.com/set1//smile/emcrook.gif

12-08-2006, 02:02 PM	#20
granracing Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: ct, usa Posts: 632	I've been doing heel-toe braking for several years and like others said, it becomes 2nd nature. It's funny though, I only do this on the street and not on the track. When I first started racing, I sought out additional coaching (not just the HPDE instructor type thing), and recommended not to do it the type of cars we're racing. There's just no need. Others, such as some drivers here, really recommend it. I don't. 5th to 3rd - one chance for a misshift. 5th to 4th to 3rd - two chances for a misshift. It's also more time consuming. The key is doing it smoothly and late in the braking process. If you do it early, it surely will disrupt the car. Again, there will be differing opinions. __________________ Dave Gran NER SCCA ITB #13 Interested in Staring to Autocross, HPDE, Time Trial, or wheel-to-wheel Racing? Also sign up to win a FREE ISAAC Head & Neck Restraint System (on contests page) www.GoAheadTakeTheWheel.com