that-guy

sorry to hear this Marrku. running a business is tough without a doubt. sucks that things are going so rough right now but it will start to look up. Spring is right around the corner and people are going to start wanting all their custom racecar parts done. only problem with winter is that nobody has the motivation to do anything with their projects unless they do infact own a shop. on the bright side though, its tax season, and as soon as people start getting their taxes back they will start laying that paper down. keep your head up and fight it till the bitter end

h22crxpwr

In all Honesty with the way things are these days the best thing to do is to really get a 9-5 job.

and then do sidework fabricating / building motors/ maintenance. whatever it is that you do on the side.

Then the extra money seems to mean a lot more. as opposed to relying on flaky customer and praying for them to pan out.

Its ends up that every side job you do is like a bonus to your 9-5 paycheck.. (plus i'm sure you are at your shop now more than 8 hours a day!!) and no rent to pay for a building, shop bills, etc..

At least thats the way it seems to be the best for me.

Good luck in whatever you decide... i just know i have a lot less stress without relying entirely on customers anymore.

JamesS

My first post in this thread, but I've vicariously watched this thread. Sorry to hear things are rough right now, but you've been getting some good advice/ideas from others here. Hopefully you figure something out that works for you to get to greener pastures.

My ideas:

1. I like the idea that has already been suggested to cater some to the high end markets that are still spending money. Porsche, BMW, Audi, etc..... I also would add to maybe consider wholesaling a product, like an exhaust manifold for a certain popular Audi model that people like to upgrade. This way, you can expand your reach (international even) quickly with other aftermarket shops that specifically carry products for these type cars. Their customer database is now sort of your customer database.

2. Offer welding classes or instructional tips/tricks videos?

3. You are undeniably creative and have a very good eye in certain disciplines. Kickstarter.com Maybe you can come up with a project/product that uses your welding skills. The beauty is that you invest very little unless your idea is fully funded by a certain time.

---
Best of luck to you whatever you decide.

Agtronic

Wow guys! Can't believe all of you were still watching this thread. Thanks so much for taking the time to write in.

With regards to moving towards the higher end cars. This is something I have been trying to do since the begining. I have wanted to do those cars since the day I opened, but somehow, the Audi / VW stuff is what has found me. First issue is that there aren't many of them around up here, and second, they tend to be a click, where they all do the same thing, and getting into that world seems nearly impossible. I do have a few Porsche roll cages coming in next week, so that may help in that regard, but it's still difficult. As for Lambos and Ferraris, put it this way. I'd be lucky to see one on the street once a year during summer. Where as down in say Miami, you guys see them at every corner. Sometimes I feel like my location is really hurting the potential of the business. Yes, we have the internet and can sell through there, but you still need access to these types of cars if you want to develop parts for them.

As for my comment about favors etc ... I tend to be too friendly with people, and everyone thinks I'm their best friend. So if I'm not careful, I often start to notice someone is over often, working on their own **** in my shop, and I only notice it has gotten that far when it's too late, and I have to act like an ******* to get them to stay away. Or I'll take on stuff I know I shouldn't, like patching rust holes in a 1975 gas tank off a motorcycle, which I know nothing about, and end up warping the **** out of it, after spending 2 hours on it, and can't charge the customer 'cause I ruined his tank, then he comes back and asks me to try something else, and out of guilt, I say okay, and it's the same story again. This is the kind of **** I am trying hard to stop, but I have to catch myself early, or else the time is already gone.

As for sponsorship, I have noticed that offers I have made in passing to a few important customers a long time ago, all tend to come in at the worst possible time. One customer I am happy to do it for, as I think it's going to make big numbers and get lots of exposure, but the rest just feels like a burden, with no real positive outcome. But I also don't want to be the guy who talks and makes offers, then when the time comes and someone comes to take me up on the offer, I tell them too bad ... All things I am learning as I go.

b16bri, the logos I drew in Solidworks and had water jet cut locally. Anyone with a water jet who knows how to use it well can do this. Use 1/16" bushed stainless for a bling look!

Aaron, I'll give you a shout when I get the chance!

Glad I was able to inspire some people with this thread. It's really cool, and I know what it feels like because I have been inspired to start welding and doing CAD by reading threads on forums also.

Bluebomber, excellent suggestions. The thing that worries me about doing side jobs, is that if I'm not at the shop making the hourly rate, it's not money that I can just dump into the business to pay rent. The money has to be generated here and on the books, or else I can't pay the expenses. It costs me roughly $3200 per month to keep the place afloat. If I spend 20 hours a week doing odd jobs, that's great to make money for my pocket, but there will be less generated at the shop, and I'm already not making the 3200 per month anymore.

I think the key for me will be to stay positive and start focusing my efforts back online. I have been very much burried in my work and have payed little attention to the website. I have all kinds of ideas for it, making it more interactive, comments at the bottom of galleries, etc ... and I think advertising is going to be important. I just wish I had some money to throw at some more forum accounts etc ... I honestly don't know how anymore can get an account on a big forum like this one or the VWVortex. It's not even remotely possible for me at this point.

As for doing general mechanics, I have never been "too good" for that. The odd times that I have found myself doing a coilover install or brakes on the lift, I realized I had forgotten how easy it is and how free your mind is when doing it. I love that type of work. I was just being careful to keep the Agtronic name synonymous with "high end fabrication". I wanted to keep the image clean and am very scared to attract the local guys who want cheap mechanical work. The last thing I need is a more phone calls and walk-ins for stuff that gets in the way of my high-end, slow-paced fabrication work. I need to stay concentrated and every call or walk-in really kills my flow. Not saying it's a bad idea, but maybe I need to find a way to attract key mechanics jobs, without making it public that I do that.

There are definitely other things I can do. I was thinking of doing graphics, web design and php coding on the side. I had gotten pretty good at that before I started the shop. I really enjoyed the php stuff, and now I see all these new ideas and ways of working with those things (AJAX etc ...) that I would love to play with. At least this way, I could still bill it from the shop (under Agtronic Media) and then it works out aswell.

Again, thanks so much guys. I have read each post, even though I didn't reply directly to everyone.

Another day today!!

weiRtech

you can call me any time of day markku. my cell is always on.

Jenkinsal2

Im a broke college student, but I do have some free time. If you need help with any solid modeling let me know. I would be more then happy to help out.

5.0 Killa

A few more notes:

Sounds like you needs a business partner. You need to be honest with yourself and take an inventory of your strengths and weaknesses. I'm an engineer but my partner is far more gifted in design so he does a lot of the technical work and I handle the money, sales, business development, ect.. You need a partner to refine your model so you can focus on welding - You are the 'talent' so to speak.

We've made the mistake of taking on shitty fab jobs in the past to keep our utilization up and it always bites us in the ***. You can maintain your high end brand and still preform routine maintenance, as someone already mentioned, just charge more.

Aside:
There are enough exotics floating around here that there has to be way more in Montreal...even if they are being driven by french arseholes.

nemisish20

Markuu..

You have so much talent no to succeed in your business.

Stop doing favors. You may make "friends" but friends do not pay your bills.

I think the suggestion about doing side work at the shop on the books like brakes and etc is a VERY good idea.

You could even do High End brake installs like big brake kits and etc.

There is money to be made and you have a few VW's there you can make off the shelf exhaust kits for and Audis as well.

Your best bet is to start making awesome quality products that can be ordered offline. Call around to companies like motorstate distributing and summitt to seel some of your product.

Local performance shops, etc.


You have the talent and knowledge to succeed but you are too nice of a guy and it is getting the best of you.

If i owned a VW worth spending $$ on i would no questions asked have you make me an exhaust and any type of fab work i needed just because you are a great guy and you have amazing skill at what you do.

Keep your head up man.

silly sohc

Markku,

Since I've left JRP doing fabrication, and they are getting a sales rep on the road in your area, I've put in a word to have them contact you for fab work, clean installs, or short run parts. It may be a good working relationship for you to talk with them to get your name out a lil more to get some more work in from the surrounding area. There road rep could carry your card and maybe the Toronto office may order some items from you.

Jay

CRMB

Eh. Business partner = short term fix, long term fail.

PPLH8R

I agree completely with what was said here .
My true passion in life is fabrication and unfortunately I have not found a way to be able to stay in bussiness by doing just that.
I have had to turn my business into a full time repair shop because it is what can get my bills and myself paid.
I do still fabricate but on a very limited basis.
You have true talent in the fabrication department and hope that you can somehow figure out how to make ends meet.
Good luck to you

Professor15

why no go to your local community college/technical school and pick up someone to help you maintain/expand your website and online presence. considering college kids work for close to nothing, it could help lighten the load a bit for you will still giving you the exposure you want/need.

silly sohc

I didn't mean it as working closely together or partnership, just a contact for an opportunity to get more work in the door.

mgerth

I took this path a few months ago after just getting burnt out. I was tired of being strapped for cash and I was afraid it was going to get worse before it got better. Two buddies owned the business but I had invested a lot of myself into it and it was a hard decision to leave.

You've got the talent to be successful and I wouldn't give up just yet. As others have said, moving into other markets may help as will focused marketing but it'll be months before these start to have visible financial benefits so you need to commit yourself to a reasonable time frame before getting discouraged.

The VW/Audi camp can be really profitable but I'd focus on current models. Your B5 kits are great but those guys (on the whole) are cheap as hell. It obviously will take some investing to develop new kits/parts but if you can bare the R&D it could pay off for you. A batch of 25 downpipes may not be sexy from a creative standpoint but it'll generate income easier than 25 custom pieces.

I've really enjoyed following this thread over the years and wish you well.

dave@passenger

I honestly don't know how any fab shop is going to survive serving VW/Audi owners. I wish you the best man, ditch the cheap bastards ASAP if you want to stick with this.

And I agree with Adam, business partner=fail, you'd be better off taking on a 9-5 then a business partner.

lpmfg

Just because you dcing, use only top grade parts, and only service top endo brakes and oil changes doesn't mean you have to be a general mech. and work on cheap cars, if you are a high end shop work on high end cars, the way to do this is be on the higher side on your prices, if some one wants their pinto tuned up, tell them its a two week wait and your 20% higher then the shop down the road. If you start taking on all general repairs youll likely loose your high end market.

also on the customer walk in screwing you up. I would have a "by appointment only" that way when you are in the shop you are making money. not shooting the wind with people, if the customer cant wait for a appointment, he probably wasn't worth working for in the first place..

90blackcrx

I understand what you are saying, but if you can make the same amount you do now in that line of work ( general maintencae or basic jobs like coil over installs ect.. ) why not ? You could at least pick and choose what you'd like to do. Only reason I mention it is there is a good amount of money to be made in that field, you could make enough doing jobs like that an hire someone to take on most of those jobs.

Over here my shop is half custom fabrication an high end work, and the other half is routine maintenance type stuff. Most of our fabrication is Honda/Acuras at the moment, and we make a lot more money doing routine type stuff on other cars fyi. I don't know a lot of shops now a days that can survive on custom fabrication type jobs.

nikolai.

This sounds like one of the best ideas I've read yet. Anyone that wants to spend $X,000 on custom fabrication is going to expect the highest quality work and will want your undivided attention to discuss the work. An appointment will give them that. Everyone else isn't serious about spending the money yet and as such a waste of your time. When they have the money and are ready to spend it, they'll be ready to make an appointment as well.

If I wanted to drop $10k in custom fabrication, nothing would infuriate me more than walking up to the shop and finding that he's too busy to talk to me, especially if his time is being wasted by an non-paying customer.

90blackcrx

Learning how to manage customers is key, it also helps to have someone else there that can help answer small questions or to keep them at bay while he works. If he turns away a walk in customer, just because he doesn't have an appointment, he potential is going to **** that guy off and he might never come back to spend the money. Or the guy might just go down the street to another local fab shop and give them business. We've had to build a hallway just so customers were kept out of the work area, specially in the summer time, we can have about 5 to 10 teenagers standing around at any given time. We also hire a receptionist come summer time when we get busy to help with the work load.

Half of our day is spent answering phones and helping customers over the phone or in person, as I see it, this is basically me setting up potential customers for putting money in my pocket. I understand the whole attitude that you have but that can and will drive away customers that might of been willing to spend money.

CRMB

I was once referred to an excellent specialty coating shop and drove about an hour to talk to them. I got to their facility (they are relatively small) and walked right into an "by appointment only" sign. I just turned around and left irritated. Never thought about it again until now.

Back then that job would have been a drop in the bucket for them. But if they had done a good job they may have gotten a portion of the 4-6k in powder & ceramic coating I send out every month. So as much as that sign was probably necessary for him to run his business and keep his sanity through the day, there is no telling how much business he has turned away nor how profitable that business could have been.

lpmfg

Your point is more then accurate, however we aren't comparing apples to apples, coatings business, and "one off" fabrication is COMPLETELY different field here. If we were talking about a cookie cutter company then I would agree 100%

lpmfg

No offense to you at all, but I believe you have stated why he should have only appoints in both your replies, Im sorry but hiring more help and a sec. and someone to talk on the phone 8 hours a day, plus adding additional space to store customers... come on

Id be willing to bet half that time is wasted with tire kickers, and secondly. after all the money spent hiring and training new employees to do temp jobs, creating space for your teenagers etc etc.. you could hire a general mechanic to work on those repairs, which would free up man power, and instead of having lines of people have a faster turn around.. Thats just the way I see it, but hey you work on hondas...

Personally I wouldn't bring a 15k fab job to a shop filled with teenagers and tune ups on ragged out ricers. Sorry but thats just how I see it, And if you work only on lower end cars obviously I'm not the only one. Everyone has a niche, and there is nothing wrong with what you do for a living, my suggestions were for the OP not you

CRMB

I don't see how. In this case the owner/operator has to stop to talk to customers, which was the same for that company. I'm not comparing say my company where I had 7 full time welders, and I could talk to customers and it didn't impact the outcome of production. Whether he's building a manifold for $50 an hour or coating a part for $50 an hour, it's still job shop labor.

lpmfg

I was basing it on average customer time...

CRMB

Maybe your experience is different then mine. My average walk in fab job is around 20-40 minutes which bills at an hour. I would say less then 10% of the work we do takes more then an hour to do. When we coat small parts in house (anything less then 2'x2') it takes a minimum of an hour for an operator to blast, clean, pre-heat, coat and bake a part. They both end up costing an hour + materials.