Honda constantly engaged throw out bearings
10-10-2014, 05:35 AM
#1
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Honda constantly engaged throw out bearings
I see a lot of what I believe is misconception about throw out bearings only spinning/contacting the clutch diaphragm when the pedal is pushed down.
The application is virtually any hydraulic Honda/Acura clutch system.
Can anyone explain to me what prevents the bearing from constantly contacting?
I'm looking for an answer from someone technically versed enough to explain themselves.
My reasoning for believing the bearing is a constant running type:
The slave cylinder has a spring in it. It constantly preloads the bearing against the fingers. Anyone that has taken a slave cylinder off/installed one can attest to this. The spring behind the slave cylinder piston expands till the bearing contacts the fingers. It's not much force...certainly not enough to depress the diaphragm spring. But the bearing always touches the fingers for this reason.
Freeplay is set at the MC. Its basically a measure of how far the pushrod sits from hydraulically activating the piston. Hydraulically preloading the system will cause the clutch to slip and the manual warns against that. I understand this. But that doesn't affect the slave cylinder mechanical spring that is always pushing on the bearing.
Am I wrong?
Thanks for the replies in advance!
The application is virtually any hydraulic Honda/Acura clutch system.
Can anyone explain to me what prevents the bearing from constantly contacting?
I'm looking for an answer from someone technically versed enough to explain themselves.
My reasoning for believing the bearing is a constant running type:
The slave cylinder has a spring in it. It constantly preloads the bearing against the fingers. Anyone that has taken a slave cylinder off/installed one can attest to this. The spring behind the slave cylinder piston expands till the bearing contacts the fingers. It's not much force...certainly not enough to depress the diaphragm spring. But the bearing always touches the fingers for this reason.
Freeplay is set at the MC. Its basically a measure of how far the pushrod sits from hydraulically activating the piston. Hydraulically preloading the system will cause the clutch to slip and the manual warns against that. I understand this. But that doesn't affect the slave cylinder mechanical spring that is always pushing on the bearing.
Am I wrong?
Thanks for the replies in advance!
10-10-2014, 10:39 PM
#2
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Honda constantly engaged throw out bearings
They are only loaded when the pedal is pressed and thus loaded. This is the same reason why wheel cylinders have springs in them. The goal is to eliminate compliance, and provided the pressure plate fingers rest in the correct position (as an OE clutch would do) there should be no slack between the bearing and the pressure plate.
That spring, in my judgement, provides a "default" distance. Whether or not it actually touches the plate requires inspection during operation, which as you may appreciate, is not really possible on a functioning car.
Anyone who has improperly dismantled a wheel cylinder knows that the opposing piston will force the other out of its bore due to this spring pressure. I would like the assume that the slave spring is designed for the same purpose: To remove freeplay. Freeplay should be set at one point, with the assumption that there is not freeplay anywhere else.
In the end, no, you are correct.
That spring, in my judgement, provides a "default" distance. Whether or not it actually touches the plate requires inspection during operation, which as you may appreciate, is not really possible on a functioning car.
Anyone who has improperly dismantled a wheel cylinder knows that the opposing piston will force the other out of its bore due to this spring pressure. I would like the assume that the slave spring is designed for the same purpose: To remove freeplay. Freeplay should be set at one point, with the assumption that there is not freeplay anywhere else.
In the end, no, you are correct.
10-11-2014, 05:29 AM
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Re: Honda constantly engaged throw out bearings
^Thanks for the reply.
On all the Honda clutch jobs I've done, if the slave cylinder is removed from the trans and left to its own devices, it will expand fully out.
I am confident that the bearing has to contact the diaphragm during operation.
I would say this is evidenced by the fact that when everything is assembled and the freeplay is set correctly....the fork is clearly already loaded into a postion...meaning you can't push toward the diaphragm any further. And if you push it toward the slave cyl and compress the piston...it just springs back into position til it stops when the bearing touches the fingers.
I'm basically trying to dispell myths about noises in the trans. I think that since the TOB is rotating or contacting the diaphragm at all times, a constant noise with the pedal in the up-position could very well be a TOB.
I've seen noisy TOB's in person...and nobody else seems to think that they can exist without pedal pressure lol.
I want to establish that is is a constant running bearing (some aftermarket sites have this info....Honda doesn't say whether it is or isn't). And then pose the question:
Why couldn't a noise with the pedal released be a TOB issue? Not saying it always is. But....why rule it out completely?
On all the Honda clutch jobs I've done, if the slave cylinder is removed from the trans and left to its own devices, it will expand fully out.
I am confident that the bearing has to contact the diaphragm during operation.
I would say this is evidenced by the fact that when everything is assembled and the freeplay is set correctly....the fork is clearly already loaded into a postion...meaning you can't push toward the diaphragm any further. And if you push it toward the slave cyl and compress the piston...it just springs back into position til it stops when the bearing touches the fingers.
I'm basically trying to dispell myths about noises in the trans. I think that since the TOB is rotating or contacting the diaphragm at all times, a constant noise with the pedal in the up-position could very well be a TOB.
I've seen noisy TOB's in person...and nobody else seems to think that they can exist without pedal pressure lol.
I want to establish that is is a constant running bearing (some aftermarket sites have this info....Honda doesn't say whether it is or isn't). And then pose the question:
Why couldn't a noise with the pedal released be a TOB issue? Not saying it always is. But....why rule it out completely?
10-11-2014, 06:26 AM
#4
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Re: Honda constantly engaged throw out bearings
I'm pretty sure they are engaged at all times. If you notice there are threads with issues "hearing" the throughout bearing even when the clutch is not engaged.
10-11-2014, 06:28 AM
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Re: Honda constantly engaged throw out bearings
^Thanks for the reply.
On all the Honda clutch jobs I've done, if the slave cylinder is removed from the trans and left to its own devices, it will expand fully out.
I am confident that the bearing has to contact the diaphragm during operation.
I would say this is evidenced by the fact that when everything is assembled and the freeplay is set correctly....the fork is clearly already loaded into a postion...meaning you can't push toward the diaphragm any further. And if you push it toward the slave cyl and compress the piston...it just springs back into position til it stops when the bearing touches the fingers.
I'm basically trying to dispell myths about noises in the trans. I think that since the TOB is rotating or contacting the diaphragm at all times, a constant noise with the pedal in the up-position could very well be a TOB.
I've seen noisy TOB's in person...and nobody else seems to think that they can exist without pedal pressure lol.
I want to establish that is is a constant running bearing (some aftermarket sites have this info....Honda doesn't say whether it is or isn't). And then pose the question:
Why couldn't a noise with the pedal released be a TOB issue? Not saying it always is. But....why rule it out completely?
On all the Honda clutch jobs I've done, if the slave cylinder is removed from the trans and left to its own devices, it will expand fully out.
I am confident that the bearing has to contact the diaphragm during operation.
I would say this is evidenced by the fact that when everything is assembled and the freeplay is set correctly....the fork is clearly already loaded into a postion...meaning you can't push toward the diaphragm any further. And if you push it toward the slave cyl and compress the piston...it just springs back into position til it stops when the bearing touches the fingers.
I'm basically trying to dispell myths about noises in the trans. I think that since the TOB is rotating or contacting the diaphragm at all times, a constant noise with the pedal in the up-position could very well be a TOB.
I've seen noisy TOB's in person...and nobody else seems to think that they can exist without pedal pressure lol.
I want to establish that is is a constant running bearing (some aftermarket sites have this info....Honda doesn't say whether it is or isn't). And then pose the question:
Why couldn't a noise with the pedal released be a TOB issue? Not saying it always is. But....why rule it out completely?
10-11-2014, 03:39 PM
#6
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Re: Honda constantly engaged throw out bearings
Lol. Someone in the prelude forum called me a dumbass right off the bat for saying that TOB's are constantly engaged. I could not get through to him no matter how much reasoning I used.
So I thought I'd start a thread incase other people had a question about a noise in their trans.
10-11-2014, 04:08 PM
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Re: Honda constantly engaged throw out bearings
Lol. Someone in the prelude forum called me a dumbass right off the bat for saying that TOB's are constantly engaged. I could not get through to him no matter how much reasoning I used.
So I thought I'd start a thread incase other people had a question about a noise in their trans.
So I thought I'd start a thread incase other people had a question about a noise in their trans.
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10-12-2014, 11:01 AM
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Re: Honda constantly engaged throw out bearings
Lol. Someone in the prelude forum called me a dumbass right off the bat for saying that TOB's are constantly engaged. I could not get through to him no matter how much reasoning I used.
So I thought I'd start a thread incase other people had a question about a noise in their trans.
So I thought I'd start a thread incase other people had a question about a noise in their trans.
10-12-2014, 12:55 PM
#9
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Honda constantly engaged throw out bearings
There is a pronounced difference in ISB and throw out noise. Most ISB failures I see are loose enough to allow the mainshaft to wobble, and you can hear that pretty easily.
Your on point.
10-13-2014, 04:24 AM
#11
10-13-2014, 04:38 AM
#12
Re: Honda constantly engaged throw out bearings
I'm not sure why some people still choose to believe that the release bearing is constantly held against the pressure plate diaphragm fingers. For Honda to do so would be completely against all logic and unnecessary so it deliberately set it up so that it is not constantly held against the pressure plate. Then it told you how to prevent that from happening via "clutch free play".
The above posts photo was taken DIRECTLY from my Helms. It goes on to state in the section titled "clutch free play"
https://honda-tech.com/honda-prelude...noise-3224485/
For those completely and totally unable to comprehend what that means I will, AGAIN, decipher it.
What Honda is saying is thus, "PLEASE BE SURE THAT THERE IS FREE PLAY BECAUSE IF THERE ISN'T THEN THE THROWOUT BEARING WILL BE HELD AGAINST THE DIAPHRAGM SPRINGS, WHICH WILL CAUSE YOUR CLUTCH DISK TO SLIP IF THE FREEPLAY IS SEVERELY EXCESSIVE OR POSSIBLY THE CLUTCH RELEASE BEARING WILL WEAR FASTER OR OVERHEAT DUE TO IT BEING HELD AGAINST THE PRESSURE PLATE THAT IS CONSTANTLY SPINNING. YOU DO NOT WANT THE RELEASE BEARING TO BE CONSTANTLY SPINNING WHICH WILL HAPPEN IF IT IS AT ALL TIMES BEING HELD AGAINST THE PRESSURE PLATE DIAPHRAGM SPRINGS."
It is completely and totally clear.
I have now made a video which I posted in the above post where I show that when I had my friend simply use his finger to press down on the free play that I have added to my clutch pedal according to what Honda indicated, it has given me about an eighth to a sixteenth of an inch of play as you can see that movement in the slave cylinder. To be crystal clear, my friend is not at all putting any pressure whatsoever on the pressure plate. He is merely using a finger to jiggle the clutch pedal to take up the free play that I have added according to what is outlined in the Helms...namely 15mm of free play. If the throwout bearing was already completely held against the pressure plate, there would be no movement whatsoever. However, you see movement and it is directly proportional to the amount of free play in the pedal versus the total maximum movement in the pedal from a fully released position all the way to floor versus the total movement available when you completely press down on the pedal and view the the full movement of the slave cylinder.
In other words, the free play movement I have at the clutch pedal is about 1/8th to 1/16th of the total overall maximum movement of the clutch pedal and as you can clearly see in the video, you can see about 1/8th movement to 1/16th movement in the slave cylinder, it is almost directly proportional.
Clearly what is happening is that the clutch return/assist springs helps to propel the clutch pedal back and, thus, the throwout bearing is pulled slightly away from the pressure plates diaphragm, provided you have the necessary amount of free play.
I am now going to include in my next reply a better picture of the CAUTION outlined in the Helms, for those that have a hard time seeing.
Hopefully now people will start to understand how important free play is and we won't have to worry about people giving out bs advice regarding throwout bearing issues.
The above posts photo was taken DIRECTLY from my Helms. It goes on to state in the section titled "clutch free play"
https://honda-tech.com/honda-prelude...noise-3224485/
CAUTION: If there is no clearance between the master cylinder piston and the push rod, the release bearing is held against the diaphragm spring, which can result in clutch slippage or other clutch problems.
What Honda is saying is thus, "PLEASE BE SURE THAT THERE IS FREE PLAY BECAUSE IF THERE ISN'T THEN THE THROWOUT BEARING WILL BE HELD AGAINST THE DIAPHRAGM SPRINGS, WHICH WILL CAUSE YOUR CLUTCH DISK TO SLIP IF THE FREEPLAY IS SEVERELY EXCESSIVE OR POSSIBLY THE CLUTCH RELEASE BEARING WILL WEAR FASTER OR OVERHEAT DUE TO IT BEING HELD AGAINST THE PRESSURE PLATE THAT IS CONSTANTLY SPINNING. YOU DO NOT WANT THE RELEASE BEARING TO BE CONSTANTLY SPINNING WHICH WILL HAPPEN IF IT IS AT ALL TIMES BEING HELD AGAINST THE PRESSURE PLATE DIAPHRAGM SPRINGS."
It is completely and totally clear.
I have now made a video which I posted in the above post where I show that when I had my friend simply use his finger to press down on the free play that I have added to my clutch pedal according to what Honda indicated, it has given me about an eighth to a sixteenth of an inch of play as you can see that movement in the slave cylinder. To be crystal clear, my friend is not at all putting any pressure whatsoever on the pressure plate. He is merely using a finger to jiggle the clutch pedal to take up the free play that I have added according to what is outlined in the Helms...namely 15mm of free play. If the throwout bearing was already completely held against the pressure plate, there would be no movement whatsoever. However, you see movement and it is directly proportional to the amount of free play in the pedal versus the total maximum movement in the pedal from a fully released position all the way to floor versus the total movement available when you completely press down on the pedal and view the the full movement of the slave cylinder.
In other words, the free play movement I have at the clutch pedal is about 1/8th to 1/16th of the total overall maximum movement of the clutch pedal and as you can clearly see in the video, you can see about 1/8th movement to 1/16th movement in the slave cylinder, it is almost directly proportional.
Clearly what is happening is that the clutch return/assist springs helps to propel the clutch pedal back and, thus, the throwout bearing is pulled slightly away from the pressure plates diaphragm, provided you have the necessary amount of free play.
I am now going to include in my next reply a better picture of the CAUTION outlined in the Helms, for those that have a hard time seeing.
Hopefully now people will start to understand how important free play is and we won't have to worry about people giving out bs advice regarding throwout bearing issues.
10-13-2014, 03:09 PM
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Re: Honda constantly engaged throw out bearings
^This guy has a hard time interpreting what the manual says. The manual is warning against using hydraulic force to push the release bearing against the diaphragm. He disagrees that the bearing is always touching the fingers...and he thinks I'm an idiot.
He keeps citing "FREEPLAY".
See this thread for his idiotic claim that the clutch assist spring AT THE PEDAL somehow pulls back the slave cylinder piston.
https://honda-tech.com/honda-prelude...3224485/page3/
He can't explain how it works...but...I'm a dumbass....
Too bad people in this forum agree with me as well
https://honda-tech.com/honda-civic-d...oises-3225747/
All in all...he can't answer the simple question, and I 100% guarantee he won't answer it here:
Can you move the fork back and forth at the slave cylinder when everything is installed and the freeplay is set? Or is the fork butted up against something already?
He keeps citing "FREEPLAY".
See this thread for his idiotic claim that the clutch assist spring AT THE PEDAL somehow pulls back the slave cylinder piston.
https://honda-tech.com/honda-prelude...3224485/page3/
He can't explain how it works...but...I'm a dumbass....
Too bad people in this forum agree with me as well
https://honda-tech.com/honda-civic-d...oises-3225747/
All in all...he can't answer the simple question, and I 100% guarantee he won't answer it here:
Can you move the fork back and forth at the slave cylinder when everything is installed and the freeplay is set? Or is the fork butted up against something already?
Last edited by B serious; 10-13-2014 at 03:47 PM.
10-13-2014, 05:49 PM
#16
My god you are so thick headed.
YES I CAN MOVE THE MOTHERFUCKING SLAVE CYLINDER THE EXACT AMOUNT OF FREE PLAY THAT'S SHOWN IN MY VIDEO.
Maybe caps locking will wake up those two or three braincells in that thick ******* head of yours but i doubt it going by history.
You can walk a horse to water but you can't make him drink from it.
YES I CAN MOVE THE MOTHERFUCKING SLAVE CYLINDER THE EXACT AMOUNT OF FREE PLAY THAT'S SHOWN IN MY VIDEO.
Maybe caps locking will wake up those two or three braincells in that thick ******* head of yours but i doubt it going by history.
You can walk a horse to water but you can't make him drink from it.
Last edited by holmesnmanny; 10-13-2014 at 06:37 PM.
10-13-2014, 08:02 PM
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Re: Honda constantly engaged throw out bearings
...i just watched the video. What exactly are you showing us?
You're just showing the slave cylinder moving by moving the pedal.
You have no clue how any of this works. Its remarkable. You think that there's a spring in the PEDAL that moves the slave cylinder back. And you thought I was asking if you could move the slave cylinder piston by hitting the pedal?
I don't even know where to start.....holy crap.....
You're just showing the slave cylinder moving by moving the pedal.
You have no clue how any of this works. Its remarkable. You think that there's a spring in the PEDAL that moves the slave cylinder back. And you thought I was asking if you could move the slave cylinder piston by hitting the pedal?
I don't even know where to start.....holy crap.....
10-13-2014, 08:05 PM
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Re: Honda constantly engaged throw out bearings
Just incase he deletes his post. Can someone else make sense of any of this garbage?
I'm not sure why some people still choose to believe that the release bearing is constantly held against the pressure plate diaphragm fingers. For Honda to do so would be completely against all logic and unnecessary so it deliberately set it up so that it is not constantly held against the pressure plate. Then it told you how to prevent that from happening via "clutch free play".
The above posts photo was taken DIRECTLY from my Helms. It goes on to state in the section titled "clutch free play"
https://honda-tech.com/honda-prelude...noise-3224485/
For those completely and totally unable to comprehend what that means I will, AGAIN, decipher it.
What Honda is saying is thus, "PLEASE BE SURE THAT THERE IS FREE PLAY BECAUSE IF THERE ISN'T THEN THE THROWOUT BEARING WILL BE HELD AGAINST THE DIAPHRAGM SPRINGS, WHICH WILL CAUSE YOUR CLUTCH DISK TO SLIP IF THE FREEPLAY IS SEVERELY EXCESSIVE OR POSSIBLY THE CLUTCH RELEASE BEARING WILL WEAR FASTER OR OVERHEAT DUE TO IT BEING HELD AGAINST THE PRESSURE PLATE THAT IS CONSTANTLY SPINNING. YOU DO NOT WANT THE RELEASE BEARING TO BE CONSTANTLY SPINNING WHICH WILL HAPPEN IF IT IS AT ALL TIMES BEING HELD AGAINST THE PRESSURE PLATE DIAPHRAGM SPRINGS."
It is completely and totally clear.
I have now made a video which I posted in the above post where I show that when I had my friend simply use his finger to press down on the free play that I have added to my clutch pedal according to what Honda indicated, it has given me about an eighth to a sixteenth of an inch of play as you can see that movement in the slave cylinder. To be crystal clear, my friend is not at all putting any pressure whatsoever on the pressure plate. He is merely using a finger to jiggle the clutch pedal to take up the free play that I have added according to what is outlined in the Helms...namely 15mm of free play. If the throwout bearing was already completely held against the pressure plate, there would be no movement whatsoever. However, you see movement and it is directly proportional to the amount of free play in the pedal versus the total maximum movement in the pedal from a fully released position all the way to floor versus the total movement available when you completely press down on the pedal and view the the full movement of the slave cylinder.
In other words, the free play movement I have at the clutch pedal is about 1/8th to 1/16th of the total overall maximum movement of the clutch pedal and as you can clearly see in the video, you can see about 1/8th movement to 1/16th movement in the slave cylinder, it is almost directly proportional.
Clearly what is happening is that the clutch return/assist springs helps to propel the clutch pedal back and, thus, the throwout bearing is pulled slightly away from the pressure plates diaphragm, provided you have the necessary amount of free play.
I am now going to include in my next reply a better picture of the CAUTION outlined in the Helms, for those that have a hard time seeing.
Hopefully now people will start to understand how important free play is and we won't have to worry about people giving out bs advice regarding throwout bearing issues.
The above posts photo was taken DIRECTLY from my Helms. It goes on to state in the section titled "clutch free play"
https://honda-tech.com/honda-prelude...noise-3224485/
For those completely and totally unable to comprehend what that means I will, AGAIN, decipher it.
What Honda is saying is thus, "PLEASE BE SURE THAT THERE IS FREE PLAY BECAUSE IF THERE ISN'T THEN THE THROWOUT BEARING WILL BE HELD AGAINST THE DIAPHRAGM SPRINGS, WHICH WILL CAUSE YOUR CLUTCH DISK TO SLIP IF THE FREEPLAY IS SEVERELY EXCESSIVE OR POSSIBLY THE CLUTCH RELEASE BEARING WILL WEAR FASTER OR OVERHEAT DUE TO IT BEING HELD AGAINST THE PRESSURE PLATE THAT IS CONSTANTLY SPINNING. YOU DO NOT WANT THE RELEASE BEARING TO BE CONSTANTLY SPINNING WHICH WILL HAPPEN IF IT IS AT ALL TIMES BEING HELD AGAINST THE PRESSURE PLATE DIAPHRAGM SPRINGS."
It is completely and totally clear.
I have now made a video which I posted in the above post where I show that when I had my friend simply use his finger to press down on the free play that I have added to my clutch pedal according to what Honda indicated, it has given me about an eighth to a sixteenth of an inch of play as you can see that movement in the slave cylinder. To be crystal clear, my friend is not at all putting any pressure whatsoever on the pressure plate. He is merely using a finger to jiggle the clutch pedal to take up the free play that I have added according to what is outlined in the Helms...namely 15mm of free play. If the throwout bearing was already completely held against the pressure plate, there would be no movement whatsoever. However, you see movement and it is directly proportional to the amount of free play in the pedal versus the total maximum movement in the pedal from a fully released position all the way to floor versus the total movement available when you completely press down on the pedal and view the the full movement of the slave cylinder.
In other words, the free play movement I have at the clutch pedal is about 1/8th to 1/16th of the total overall maximum movement of the clutch pedal and as you can clearly see in the video, you can see about 1/8th movement to 1/16th movement in the slave cylinder, it is almost directly proportional.
Clearly what is happening is that the clutch return/assist springs helps to propel the clutch pedal back and, thus, the throwout bearing is pulled slightly away from the pressure plates diaphragm, provided you have the necessary amount of free play.
I am now going to include in my next reply a better picture of the CAUTION outlined in the Helms, for those that have a hard time seeing.
Hopefully now people will start to understand how important free play is and we won't have to worry about people giving out bs advice regarding throwout bearing issues.
10-13-2014, 08:18 PM
#20
Fish Twig
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Re: Honda constantly engaged throw out bearings
My god you are so thick headed.
YES I CAN MOVE THE MOTHERFUCKING SLAVE CYLINDER THE EXACT AMOUNT OF FREE PLAY THAT'S SHOWN IN MY VIDEO.
Maybe caps locking will wake up those two or three braincells in that thick ******* head of yours but i doubt it going by history.
You can walk a horse to water but you can't make him drink from it.
YES I CAN MOVE THE MOTHERFUCKING SLAVE CYLINDER THE EXACT AMOUNT OF FREE PLAY THAT'S SHOWN IN MY VIDEO.
Maybe caps locking will wake up those two or three braincells in that thick ******* head of yours but i doubt it going by history.
You can walk a horse to water but you can't make him drink from it.
10-13-2014, 08:27 PM
#21
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Re: Honda constantly engaged throw out bearings
I tell you what, weld the bearing and throw it back in your car and tell me if it isn't making any noise, post videos of the welding process, installation and start up.
10-13-2014, 09:08 PM
#22
Re: Honda constantly engaged throw out bearings
Common sense.
10-13-2014, 09:10 PM
#23
Re: Honda constantly engaged throw out bearings
Coming from the guy that is only "pretty sure" as opposed to "certain", people can take your opinion on this with a grain of salt.
I am, however, 100% certain it's not held against the pressure plate and I have proven it, instead of just saying it.
I am, however, 100% certain it's not held against the pressure plate and I have proven it, instead of just saying it.
Last edited by holmesnmanny; 10-13-2014 at 09:31 PM.
10-13-2014, 09:11 PM
#24
Re: Honda constantly engaged throw out bearings
As if anyone is going to be stupid enough to want to do that anyhow.
10-13-2014, 09:13 PM
#25
Re: Honda constantly engaged throw out bearings
It's pretty obvious that this B serious dude knows I'm right so it's really pointless to keep arguing with someone that has too much pride to admit he's wrong, since about 7 pages of thread ago.
Thanks for playing and have a nice day.
Thanks for playing and have a nice day.