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Old 04-15-2004, 02:16 PM   #1
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Default Timing 180 degrees off???

I had to fix my timing today because my belt jumped a few teeth while I was goin down the road the other day and the car stopped running.

Here is what I did: 1)broke loose the crank pulley bolt.
2)turned the crank until the pulley key was on the top.
3)removed the timing belt
4)turned both cam gears until the nothches on them were parallel with the top of the head and the arrows that say up were poointing up.
I had a problem in step 4: The intake cam wouldn't turn after a certain point so I was forced to turn it in the opposite direction of the exhaust cam. Would that effect anything? THey both ended up where they should be.

What did I do wrong? My car is still not running. It makes a sound like the battery is dead, while I try to crank it.

All help is greatly appreciated Click the image to open in full size.


Modified by B16CRXT at 5:47 PM 4/15/2004
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Old 04-15-2004, 02:38 PM   #2
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Default Re: Timing 180 degrees off??? (B16CRXT)

A valve in your motor is sitting against a piston and wonly allow it to turn.. Unsure how you got to that point.. Make sure the "UP" is pointing up and the crank is aligned to TDC.. That should be all you need.. Not sure where your timing is now..

Anytime you do a timing belt or adjust cam timing you should always turn the motor over a complete revolution with a ratched before trying to start it..
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Old 04-15-2004, 02:41 PM   #3
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Default

a valve is on my piston? how would fix that? Tear down the head?

Also, when the pully key is on top isnt that TDC? I dont feel like taking the pulley off and I have heard on this forum that the key was also a TDC mark.


Modified by B16CRXT at 5:53 PM 4/15/2004
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Old 04-15-2004, 02:59 PM   #4
 
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Default Re: (B16CRXT)

look for the white and red marking for the crank pulley.
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Old 04-15-2004, 04:48 PM   #5
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Default Re: (hybridvteceg)

OK... First, if you didn't force the camshaft hard when it didn't turn, you can hope that you didn't bend a valve. Then you can do this:

1) Turn your crank about 90 degrees away from TDC. This way NONE of the pistons are at the top of their stroke.

2) Turn the camshafts whichever way you need to line them up like they belong.

3) NOW you can turn the crank directly back to TDC because none of the valves for #1 & #4 are open.

4) Put the belt back on.

Now that the belt's on you should only turn the engine forwards.

The key is not the TDC mark, but mine has a TDC mark on the crank sprocket for the belt. There's a mark on the oil pump.

The real kicker is the timing can't really be 180 degrees off. The crank turns 2 revolutions for every 1 of the cams. So you simply had to turn the crank around once, then your cams would have been almost there.
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Old 04-16-2004, 03:16 AM   #6
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Default

so, if my timing is still off, it is possible that the crank is simply out of time still with the cams by 1 rotation?

I have a feeling my vavles are bent. this is my thread on my problem. http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=832198

I saw JDMShit.com had some pretty cheap prices. Do they sell quality parts? Can I get a head cheaper from somewhere else. Also, they sell trannies and ECU's. faily cheap as well. Complete head and tranny both starting at $395. I thought that was a good price (is it?).

Thanks for your help guys Click the image to open in full size.+
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Old 04-16-2004, 04:38 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by B16CRXT
so, if my timing is still off, it is possible that the crank is simply out of time still with the cams by 1 rotation?
No, what I meant was there's no such thing as the crank being off by one revolution. The crank comes up to TDC twice for every revolution of the cams. It's supposed to do that.
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Quote:
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some guy told me that I could set the torque wrench that I have to 100 ft/lbs and then torque it, when it clicks torque it again at 81/ft lbs to have the torque add up to 181 ft/lbs
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Old 04-16-2004, 07:06 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by JimBlake
OK... First, if you didn't force the camshaft hard when it didn't turn, you can hope that you didn't bend a valve. Then you can do this:

1) Turn your crank about 90 degrees away from TDC. This way NONE of the pistons are at the top of their stroke.

2) Turn the camshafts whichever way you need to line them up like they belong.

3) NOW you can turn the crank directly back to TDC because none of the valves for #1 & #4 are open.

4) Put the belt back on.

Now that the belt's on you should only turn the engine forwards.

The key is not the TDC mark, but mine has a TDC mark on the crank sprocket for the belt. There's a mark on the oil pump.

The real kicker is the timing can't really be 180 degrees off. The crank turns 2 revolutions for every 1 of the cams. So you simply had to turn the crank around once, then your cams would have been almost there.
Click the image to open in full size. Click the image to open in full size. Click the image to open in full size.

Do this and you should be fine..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beerbongskickass
I sat on a flow bench once and farted more air flow than a d-series head.
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Old 04-16-2004, 09:06 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBlake

The real kicker is the timing can't really be 180 degrees off. The crank turns 2 revolutions for every 1 of the cams. So you simply had to turn the crank around once, then your cams would have been almost there.
Curious...I bought a cx off a dude for $500 bucks. The car ran like S, but I was swapping in a Z6 anyway. Well, he said that the car had a bad injector, I ruled that out. When I went to check the timing belt, the cam gear was off 180 degrees. Would that not make the timing 180 degrees off?
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Old 04-16-2004, 09:49 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerMan

Curious...I bought a cx off a dude for $500 bucks. The car ran like S, but I was swapping in a Z6 anyway. Well, he said that the car had a bad injector, I ruled that out. When I went to check the timing belt, the cam gear was off 180 degrees. Would that not make the timing 180 degrees off?
The timing can not be 180 deg off, but the balance shafts can be (if it has balance shafts) One of the balance shafts turns at crank speed, and the other (rear) spins at 1/2 crank speed. If it is a Civic (which does not have balance shafts) you can not be off 180deg. Turn the crank 360 deg and the cam will be in the right spot, and so will the crank.
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Old 04-16-2004, 10:01 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech
The timing can not be 180 deg off, but the balance shafts can be (if it has balance shafts) One of the balance shafts turns at crank speed, and the other (rear) spins at 1/2 crank speed. If it is a Civic (which does not have balance shafts) you can not be off 180deg. Turn the crank 360 deg and the cam will be in the right spot, and so will the crank.
So if piston #1 is at TDC and the cam gear UP mark is pointing down, how far off would the timing be?
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Old 04-16-2004, 10:17 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerMan

So if piston #1 is at TDC and the cam gear UP mark is pointing down, how far off would the timing be?
[sigh] Turn the crank 360 degrees. The cam will turn 180 degrees, the cams will now be pointing up, and the crank will be right back where it started.

With the crank at the pointer, and the cam arrow pointing down, you are NOT at #1 TDC, you are at #4 TDC.
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Old 04-16-2004, 10:29 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerMan

So if piston #1 is at TDC and the cam gear UP mark is pointing down, how far off would the timing be?
Should be dead on..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beerbongskickass
I sat on a flow bench once and farted more air flow than a d-series head.
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Old 04-16-2004, 10:29 AM   #14
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[sigh] Turn the crank 360 degrees. The cam will turn 180 degrees, the cams will now be pointing up, and the crank will be right back where it started.

With the crank at the pointer, and the cam arrow pointing down, you are NOT at #1 TDC, you are at #4 TDC.
I apologize for what might be nooby questions to you, just trying to learn. I wish I could go back and look at the way that timing belt was installed, unfortunately that engine is long gone to the junkyard.
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Old 04-16-2004, 10:49 AM   #15
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[sigh] Turn the crank 360 degrees. The cam will turn 180 degrees, the cams will now be pointing up, and the crank will be right back where it started.

With the crank at the pointer, and the cam arrow pointing down, you are NOT at #1 TDC, you are at #4 TDC.
Click the image to open in full size.

You could also set the crank at TDC and align the cam gears where the "UP" pointer is pointed down and it would work, You would be aligning to #4 TDC.. Its eaiser to do #1 though..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beerbongskickass
I sat on a flow bench once and farted more air flow than a d-series head.
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Old 04-16-2004, 11:00 AM   #16
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Click the image to open in full size.

You could also set the crank at TDC and align the cam gears where the "UP" pointer is pointed down and it would work, You would be aligning to #4 TDC.. Its eaiser to do #1 though..
Understood. Thanks. Hmm...as I said above, I wish I could look at that timing belt was originally installed because it sure as hell didn't run like in was on there properly; I wonder if I am remembering it correctly.
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Old 04-16-2004, 11:07 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerMan
I apologize for what might be nooby questions to you, just trying to learn...
That's cool. Just think thru the process like this... Or try it with your current engine.

Turn the crank so it's all lined up to the TDC pointer & the camshaft(s) lined up just like they should be. Now turn the crank ONE revolution. The camshaft will have turned 1/2 revolution, so now the cam is "180 degrees out". Turn the crank one more revolution, the cams are back to being "correct".

Didn't you guys learn this in 8th grade when you took your dad's lawnmower apart?? Better yet, you go thru this same process every time you adjust your valve lash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerMan
I wish I could look at that timing belt was originally installed because it sure as hell didn't run like in was on there properly; I wonder if I am remembering it correctly.
So if that engine was running badly, there must have been some OTHER reason why it was messed up.
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Old 04-16-2004, 11:16 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBlake
That's cool. Just think thru the process like this... Or try it with your current engine.

Turn the crank so it's all lined up to the TDC pointer & the camshaft(s) lined up just like they should be. Now turn the crank ONE revolution. The camshaft will have turned 1/2 revolution, so now the cam is "180 degrees out". Turn the crank one more revolution, the cams are back to being "correct".

Didn't you guys learn this in 8th grade when you took your dad's lawnmower apart?? Better yet, you go thru this same process every time you adjust your valve lash.

So if that engine was running badly, there must have been some OTHER reason why it was messed up.

Yeah, I gotcha. I've installed a few timing belts since then with no issues.

I'm sure you are right, there was probably some other reason, I guess I'll never know though. I didn't get much of a chance to tinker with that engine before I sent to to the junkyard.
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Old 04-16-2004, 12:35 PM   #19
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Default Re: (BeerMan)

first of all, maybe yoru right with that pulley key. but the way i always get my crank to tdc is by looking at the crank gear not the pulley, it has a little ridge on it to show where tdc is, and then on the block there is alittle mark, just gotta line those up, then line up your cam gears. done. im just thinking the way you got to tdc on yoru crank isnt putting your crank to tdc, i could be wrong, ive never tried it with the pulley itself.

ive done 5 honda timing belts and all the motors are still working
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Old 02-13-2005, 12:36 PM   #20
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this is a good thread..

i never would have thought that, until I had the problem w/ my motor..
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