Silicon content in forged pistons....
06-12-2003, 07:57 AM
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Silicon content in forged pistons....
Okay, time to get things straight. I'm an all motor guy, just recently built a sleeved B18C1 with Endyn 12:1 pistons and GE Sleeves. I was really unhappy with the noise that the Pistons made when the car was cold. It would sound like a deisel for at least 5 minutes after starting.
Anyway, I tore the block back apart after only 100 miles to make sure everything was doing just fine. All clearances (checked by the machine shop while I was helping) were dead on.
Main and Rod Bearing clearances: .0015"
Piston to pin clearance: .0008"
Pin to rod clearance: .0005"
Cylinder to wall clearance: .0027
No scuffing or anything on the sleeves or pistons. Oil looks good. Compression numbers were 270psi across the board before I took it apart. So you know the noise was loud enough for me to think something was wrong.
So now I'm thinking it's just the design of the Endyn piston that's causing the noise. I talked with a guy that said he used to use nothing but Endyn in his customers engines he would build, but after having almost all of them return with the deisel motor sound complaint, he switched to a different piston.
After doing a ton of research on forged pistons, I found that there are really only two types of alloys that most manufacturers use.
2618 and 4032 Aluminum.
2618 is a high strength aerospace aluminum alloy. This specially formulated alloy includes elements of nickel, copper, magnesium, iron and 0.25% or less silicon content. The combination of these elements provide for the ultimate in high temperature strength and fatigue properties. Being a very low silicon alloy that has a high coefficient of thermal expansion, 2618 requires greater piston to cylinder wall clearance. This material is ideally suited for high cylinder pressures and skirt loads, as well as elevated combustion chamber temperatures. Applications range from blown, turbo, and nitrous to engines with high mechanical compression ratios. 2618 is 17% stronger than 4032.
4032 is a high strength aluminum alloy with 12% silicon content as the primary alloying agent. These silicon particles are extremely hard and durable and provide a wear resistant surface for the rings, pins and skirt contact areas. Additionally, with the high percentage of silicon, this alloy has a low coefficient of expansion. With 4032, much tighter piston to cylinder wall clearances can be achieved. The end result is a much quieter running engine on cold start-ups’ as well as a more stable piston with less rock over in the cylinder bore. These properties make 4032 an ideal choice for street and many mild racing applications.
JE uses 2618 for JE, and 4032 for SRP.
Arias uses both 2618, and 4032 (depending on what you ask for). If you have a star on the under the piston boss you have 4032. If not you have 2618.
Wiseco uses 4032
Not sure what Ross uses
Not sure what CP pistons use
So now I'm thinking that the design of the piston is most influential on how loud the piston is regardless of material used. Things such as skirt lenght, pin offset, compression height, weight of piston, etc. I guess I'm just looking for answers.
I used a piston that was said to be very quiet, and it's louder than hell on start up. I've used JE pistons before and they were not this loud. Some swear Arias are the quietest pistons. Some say Arias are the loudest. I've come to find out that it's open to interpretation. No one is going to agree on what is loud or quiet, because everyone has a different opinion on what LOUD is. I consider loud to be defined as when it makes enough noise for me to think something is wrong. That's loud when it comes to pistons.
I would pay for a new set of pistons if it meant I could get rid of even some of the noise. Should I stay with the Endyn piston or switch to something else? Any input you guys have, or things to add would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Modified by dplatt at 9:10 AM 6/12/2003
Anyway, I tore the block back apart after only 100 miles to make sure everything was doing just fine. All clearances (checked by the machine shop while I was helping) were dead on.
Main and Rod Bearing clearances: .0015"
Piston to pin clearance: .0008"
Pin to rod clearance: .0005"
Cylinder to wall clearance: .0027
No scuffing or anything on the sleeves or pistons. Oil looks good. Compression numbers were 270psi across the board before I took it apart. So you know the noise was loud enough for me to think something was wrong.
So now I'm thinking it's just the design of the Endyn piston that's causing the noise. I talked with a guy that said he used to use nothing but Endyn in his customers engines he would build, but after having almost all of them return with the deisel motor sound complaint, he switched to a different piston.
After doing a ton of research on forged pistons, I found that there are really only two types of alloys that most manufacturers use.
2618 and 4032 Aluminum.
2618 is a high strength aerospace aluminum alloy. This specially formulated alloy includes elements of nickel, copper, magnesium, iron and 0.25% or less silicon content. The combination of these elements provide for the ultimate in high temperature strength and fatigue properties. Being a very low silicon alloy that has a high coefficient of thermal expansion, 2618 requires greater piston to cylinder wall clearance. This material is ideally suited for high cylinder pressures and skirt loads, as well as elevated combustion chamber temperatures. Applications range from blown, turbo, and nitrous to engines with high mechanical compression ratios. 2618 is 17% stronger than 4032.
4032 is a high strength aluminum alloy with 12% silicon content as the primary alloying agent. These silicon particles are extremely hard and durable and provide a wear resistant surface for the rings, pins and skirt contact areas. Additionally, with the high percentage of silicon, this alloy has a low coefficient of expansion. With 4032, much tighter piston to cylinder wall clearances can be achieved. The end result is a much quieter running engine on cold start-ups’ as well as a more stable piston with less rock over in the cylinder bore. These properties make 4032 an ideal choice for street and many mild racing applications.
JE uses 2618 for JE, and 4032 for SRP.
Arias uses both 2618, and 4032 (depending on what you ask for). If you have a star on the under the piston boss you have 4032. If not you have 2618.
Wiseco uses 4032
Not sure what Ross uses
Not sure what CP pistons use
So now I'm thinking that the design of the piston is most influential on how loud the piston is regardless of material used. Things such as skirt lenght, pin offset, compression height, weight of piston, etc. I guess I'm just looking for answers.
I used a piston that was said to be very quiet, and it's louder than hell on start up. I've used JE pistons before and they were not this loud. Some swear Arias are the quietest pistons. Some say Arias are the loudest. I've come to find out that it's open to interpretation. No one is going to agree on what is loud or quiet, because everyone has a different opinion on what LOUD is. I consider loud to be defined as when it makes enough noise for me to think something is wrong. That's loud when it comes to pistons.
I would pay for a new set of pistons if it meant I could get rid of even some of the noise. Should I stay with the Endyn piston or switch to something else? Any input you guys have, or things to add would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Modified by dplatt at 9:10 AM 6/12/2003
06-12-2003, 08:06 AM
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Re: Silicon content in forged pistons.... (dplatt)
good post!!! 
I had JE piston in my car and they had noticeable noise/slap.
It just comes w/ the territory.
My valvetrain was noisy cuz of stiffer springs, but that sound was more of a growl. its like you could here the springs compressing.
I had JE piston in my car and they had noticeable noise/slap.
It just comes w/ the territory.
My valvetrain was noisy cuz of stiffer springs, but that sound was more of a growl. its like you could here the springs compressing.
06-13-2003, 10:32 AM
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Re: Silicon content in forged pistons.... (dplatt)
Race parts = Race vibes/sounds. Look at it as a theft deterrent. 
It really depends on the application and how far you want to take it. Its all a compromise. If you hit something hard and brittle it shatters, something soft and malleble, it dents. Is getting rid of the sound for the warmup more important than pushing the limits of the motor?
It really depends on the application and how far you want to take it. Its all a compromise. If you hit something hard and brittle it shatters, something soft and malleble, it dents. Is getting rid of the sound for the warmup more important than pushing the limits of the motor?
06-13-2003, 03:42 PM
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Re: Silicon content in forged pistons.... (dplatt)
Are you concerned about the noise itself, or that the noise is indicating accelerated piston wear? Oil analysis should be able to help monitor the wear metal rates if that's the main concern.
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06-15-2003, 08:36 PM
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Re: Silicon content in forged pistons.... (dplatt)
The first thing I did was drain the oil, pull the filter, and cut the end of the filter off to look for metal shavings. Nothing, nothing at all. Clean as a whistle. I know that forged pistons make a little more noise than stock, but this was ridiculous. I've had SRP pistons before and they were much quieter. So I'm switching pistons.
06-15-2003, 09:11 PM
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Re: Silicon content in forged pistons.... (dplatt)
As long as I know , Endyn Piston was made by Wiseco and Most of the Custom Wiseco Piston was made by AL 2618 , That's why your piston now sounds like diesel engine.
God Bless U
God Bless U
06-15-2003, 10:02 PM
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Re: Silicon content in forged pistons.... (anlia)
yes, Endyne= Wiseco = 2618 = strong *** pistons
I remember the guy from wiseco posting on this board not too long ago, do a search and i'm sure you'll find it. I would want the stronger alloy if I was running that high of compression, just my 2 cents though.
Tom
I remember the guy from wiseco posting on this board not too long ago, do a search and i'm sure you'll find it. I would want the stronger alloy if I was running that high of compression, just my 2 cents though.
Tom
06-15-2003, 11:34 PM
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well I can say that TODA pistons aren't too bad.. .I have em in mine at the moment and yeah it sorta sounds like a diesel... sound is very slight though and I suppose my valave train makes more noise than pistons. When it heats up all sounds is gone!!! A small sacrifice!
06-16-2003, 12:25 AM
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Re: Silicon content in forged pistons.... (dplatt)
I use Je pistons, we run lightly more clearance on the piston to wall to allow for heat expansion. Hence we will get some more piston slap on cold start ups. This is acceptable b/c the vehicle is highly modified and is expected. This is on a street/strip daily driver.
06-16-2003, 12:28 AM
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Re: Silicon content in forged pistons.... (saso)
Common complaint when cold. Not a worry. It's all to do with the outer shape to allow for expansion when hot.
07-08-2003, 10:46 AM
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Re: Silicon content in forged pistons.... (dplatt)
Hi there, Brian from Wiseco here. Sorry to hear your having issues with your Endyn pistons. Very commendable work doing research on the alloys though. Your descriptions of the alloys was first rate. You're smarter than most of our competition is
I have some more info that I hope helps. Wiseco builds almost every sport compact piston w/ 2618 (unless specially requested by customer). All Endyn's are 2618. The reason for this is: to make big power w/ a small engine you either a: run a turbo, b: run nitrous, c: spin the be-jesus out of it. So we try to cover all the bases and go straight to 2618. 2618 does expand more than 4032 due to less porosity. We actually build the same clearance into the bottom of the skirt though as it only see's about 250 degre's of oil temperature.
We build the skirt taper of the pistons differently depending on the alloy and forging design. We do build two different primary styles of forgings. Strutted (like our IRL, CUP, Trans Am, etc.) -extremely light strong, but also so ridged that shape becomes very important; and slipper or full round (very similar except the band that goes out to the cylinder below the pin and heavier). These are more forgiving, but not as strong (this style is what the other piston companies sell as well). If you can furnish the part number from your box, I can tell you which forging was used. We offset almost all of our pins as well like the O.E's to quiet the pistons down. This is an expense that most of the other companies don't want to mess with, but for you guys running on the street, we've found it to be very helpful. I personally run the new 11.7:1 K566 series strutted piston in my own test engine and found them to be ABSOLUTELY silent on start up. I do not yet have 500 miles on it yet, which is the real test!, but I would expect them to develop a small amount of clatter on startup for about a minute, but certainly not to the extent you are experiencing. If you are running a slipper skirt or "full round", I would expect even less noise as we design those w/ less taper. I found the numbers for our pin bore clearance and Endyn's "usual" piston to wall clearance to be correct. Perhaps even a little to perfect which brings me to my next point. If the engine is taken apart yet, I'd HEAVILY suggest you have it taken to another shop and have piston to wall clearance checked again. Have them check taper in the cylinder bore as well. Measuring point is 1.300" below the oil ring groove on all our pistons. We've got a near constant problem of shops used to building chevy's putting in an extra "thou" of clearance knowing that it's better to rattle than seize. Honda's are a different animal though. If you go to another shop, they will likely give you the straight answer. Now, if you do find that they honed the engine too large, your only economical choice is to have the pistons coated to try and take up extra clearance. I'd recommend Polymer Dynamics in Texas at 713 694 3296 as they do many of the coatings for our Pro customers. Please give me a call at 800-321-1364 ext. 3177 if I can be of further assistance. Thanks, Brian Nutter-Wiseco Piston Co.
I have some more info that I hope helps. Wiseco builds almost every sport compact piston w/ 2618 (unless specially requested by customer). All Endyn's are 2618. The reason for this is: to make big power w/ a small engine you either a: run a turbo, b: run nitrous, c: spin the be-jesus out of it. So we try to cover all the bases and go straight to 2618. 2618 does expand more than 4032 due to less porosity. We actually build the same clearance into the bottom of the skirt though as it only see's about 250 degre's of oil temperature. We build the skirt taper of the pistons differently depending on the alloy and forging design. We do build two different primary styles of forgings. Strutted (like our IRL, CUP, Trans Am, etc.) -extremely light strong, but also so ridged that shape becomes very important; and slipper or full round (very similar except the band that goes out to the cylinder below the pin and heavier). These are more forgiving, but not as strong (this style is what the other piston companies sell as well). If you can furnish the part number from your box, I can tell you which forging was used. We offset almost all of our pins as well like the O.E's to quiet the pistons down. This is an expense that most of the other companies don't want to mess with, but for you guys running on the street, we've found it to be very helpful. I personally run the new 11.7:1 K566 series strutted piston in my own test engine and found them to be ABSOLUTELY silent on start up. I do not yet have 500 miles on it yet, which is the real test!, but I would expect them to develop a small amount of clatter on startup for about a minute, but certainly not to the extent you are experiencing. If you are running a slipper skirt or "full round", I would expect even less noise as we design those w/ less taper. I found the numbers for our pin bore clearance and Endyn's "usual" piston to wall clearance to be correct. Perhaps even a little to perfect which brings me to my next point. If the engine is taken apart yet, I'd HEAVILY suggest you have it taken to another shop and have piston to wall clearance checked again. Have them check taper in the cylinder bore as well. Measuring point is 1.300" below the oil ring groove on all our pistons. We've got a near constant problem of shops used to building chevy's putting in an extra "thou" of clearance knowing that it's better to rattle than seize. Honda's are a different animal though. If you go to another shop, they will likely give you the straight answer. Now, if you do find that they honed the engine too large, your only economical choice is to have the pistons coated to try and take up extra clearance. I'd recommend Polymer Dynamics in Texas at 713 694 3296 as they do many of the coatings for our Pro customers. Please give me a call at 800-321-1364 ext. 3177 if I can be of further assistance. Thanks, Brian Nutter-Wiseco Piston Co.
07-08-2003, 05:45 PM
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Re: Silicon content in forged pistons.... (Brian Nutter)
I suppose that I should add my 2 cents to this thread.
First, lets discuss alloys and their applications.... while exceptionally strong, 4032 is harder and more brittle than 2618. It also grows less as temperatures increase. It's increased silicon content (among other things) also makes it's lubricity greater than 2618, so piston to wall frivction is less.
2618 is a more ideal alloy for forced induction applications because it''s more malleable, and therefore, capable of handling severe pounding such as what you might encounter with poorly tuned, detonating applications.
I'm not currently aware of anyone in domestic ProStock who's not using pistons made from 4032...and these engines have (designed-in) detonation. The fact that the alloy doesn't expand as much, makes it possible to build engines with tighter piston to wall clearances, and therefore better ring seal. As I stated above, using this alloy also cuts friction, and in a class where competitors run 0-weight (that's ZERO weight) oil, anything that can decrease friction is useful. Remember, we're talking about a class where at any given race, there'll be 16 cars that qualify within .02 seconds of one another and there'll also be another 16-20 cars that run within .10 second that go home.
I use 4032 alloy on our normally aspirated pistons, unless the customer tells me that he's planning to use a lot of nitrous. Brian Nutter was unaware of this until I made him look at the pistons they make to my specifications earlier today.
I prefer this alloy for the same reasons that ProStock engine builders do. It allows us to build engines with tight clearances, insuring long ring life, and exceptional wear characteristics in street, drag race, and road race applications. I also use this alloy in every engine I've ever built for myself, including the Civic's supercharged 11.2-1 compression engine which has been alive ans well for about 6 years now...and in the six months since I last changed it's oil, it's still full. I also use the 4032 in boosted engines that I build and TUNE for the same reasons.
We use 2618 alloy for all our boosted pistons that we sell to customers, primarily because I have no idea (most of the time) what sort of mastery of tuning the driver possesses and we have to give them a piston that can endure a lot of torture. The 2618 alloy grows more than the 4032 and the specification sheet with suggested clearances we provide reflects the differences.
The only applications where we've seen (or heard) piston noise have been those where the clearances have been "off". Checking clearances properly means that the diameter of the piston, measured perpindicular to the pin and .250" up from the bottom of the skirt tang, combined with the suggested piston to wall clearance, should equal the diameter of the finished cylinder bore. It's EXTREMELY important that the pistons and the cylinders both be at 75 degrees while you're measuring them. Since the pistons are aluminum, they will expand more than the cylinder bores as temperatures increase, possibly leading to machining clearances larger than they should be. Simply holding a piston in your hand for any length of time will cause the measurement to be on the large side...... so make sure everything's measured properly prior to and during all machining operations.
That's about all I have to contribute on the subject, except that we stand behind each and every piston we sell. The quality of the Roller-Wave design combined with the quality of their quality of manufacture from Wiseco, as well as the quality of dome/valve relief and finishing we perform makes them the best pistons available at any price.
We have over 48 different Roller-Wave pistons that we've designed for Honda engines engines and we stock a minimum of 175 sets of Roller-Wave pistons at all times to better serve our customers. We can also provide any Wiseco shelf-stock pistons at enormous savings to customers looking for more generic pistons.
Please feel free to contact us regarding any of your piston needs, or with any questions you may have about our products.
Larry Widmer .....aka the old one......
First, lets discuss alloys and their applications.... while exceptionally strong, 4032 is harder and more brittle than 2618. It also grows less as temperatures increase. It's increased silicon content (among other things) also makes it's lubricity greater than 2618, so piston to wall frivction is less.
2618 is a more ideal alloy for forced induction applications because it''s more malleable, and therefore, capable of handling severe pounding such as what you might encounter with poorly tuned, detonating applications.
I'm not currently aware of anyone in domestic ProStock who's not using pistons made from 4032...and these engines have (designed-in) detonation. The fact that the alloy doesn't expand as much, makes it possible to build engines with tighter piston to wall clearances, and therefore better ring seal. As I stated above, using this alloy also cuts friction, and in a class where competitors run 0-weight (that's ZERO weight) oil, anything that can decrease friction is useful. Remember, we're talking about a class where at any given race, there'll be 16 cars that qualify within .02 seconds of one another and there'll also be another 16-20 cars that run within .10 second that go home.
I use 4032 alloy on our normally aspirated pistons, unless the customer tells me that he's planning to use a lot of nitrous. Brian Nutter was unaware of this until I made him look at the pistons they make to my specifications earlier today.
I prefer this alloy for the same reasons that ProStock engine builders do. It allows us to build engines with tight clearances, insuring long ring life, and exceptional wear characteristics in street, drag race, and road race applications. I also use this alloy in every engine I've ever built for myself, including the Civic's supercharged 11.2-1 compression engine which has been alive ans well for about 6 years now...and in the six months since I last changed it's oil, it's still full. I also use the 4032 in boosted engines that I build and TUNE for the same reasons.
We use 2618 alloy for all our boosted pistons that we sell to customers, primarily because I have no idea (most of the time) what sort of mastery of tuning the driver possesses and we have to give them a piston that can endure a lot of torture. The 2618 alloy grows more than the 4032 and the specification sheet with suggested clearances we provide reflects the differences.
The only applications where we've seen (or heard) piston noise have been those where the clearances have been "off". Checking clearances properly means that the diameter of the piston, measured perpindicular to the pin and .250" up from the bottom of the skirt tang, combined with the suggested piston to wall clearance, should equal the diameter of the finished cylinder bore. It's EXTREMELY important that the pistons and the cylinders both be at 75 degrees while you're measuring them. Since the pistons are aluminum, they will expand more than the cylinder bores as temperatures increase, possibly leading to machining clearances larger than they should be. Simply holding a piston in your hand for any length of time will cause the measurement to be on the large side...... so make sure everything's measured properly prior to and during all machining operations.
That's about all I have to contribute on the subject, except that we stand behind each and every piston we sell. The quality of the Roller-Wave design combined with the quality of their quality of manufacture from Wiseco, as well as the quality of dome/valve relief and finishing we perform makes them the best pistons available at any price.
We have over 48 different Roller-Wave pistons that we've designed for Honda engines engines and we stock a minimum of 175 sets of Roller-Wave pistons at all times to better serve our customers. We can also provide any Wiseco shelf-stock pistons at enormous savings to customers looking for more generic pistons.
Please feel free to contact us regarding any of your piston needs, or with any questions you may have about our products.
Larry Widmer .....aka the old one......
07-09-2003, 04:25 AM
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Re: Silicon content in forged pistons.... (dplatt)
Sorry about this mis-information on the 4032 for Endyn. I had my head in our latest Strutted forgings which have been 2618 up to this point. Larry has requested that we do some strutted forgings in 4032, so I'll have some made asap. Good Call on the Pro Stock Pistons Larry. I might want to mention that Wiseco is currently 1,2,3 in the points in Pro Stock this year over CP and JE and BME pistons. We switched to 4032 on those about 2 years ago from 2618. We're currently #1 in Winston Cup w/ Roush and we were the highest placing American made piston at Indy this year-both using 2618 alloy. -Brian Nutter-Wiseco Piston
Modified by Brian Nutter at 1:40 PM 7/9/2003
Modified by Brian Nutter at 1:40 PM 7/9/2003
07-12-2003, 09:36 AM
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Just to add, my Endyn pistons are quiet. They are the forced induction pistons (2618 alloy). My machinist has done lots of work on import engines and pays very close attention to detail. All of the specs given by Larry were followed exactly.
When I started my engine for the first time, I expected it to sound like a diesel truck. It doesn't sound that way at all. I was and continue to be pleasantly surprised.
Sonny
07-14-2003, 02:30 PM
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Re: Silicon content in forged pistons.... (dplatt)
FYI, CP uses 2618 alloy for my off the shelf d16z6 pistons. The silicon content is less than 1%. This according to Darius at CP via email.
07-18-2003, 06:56 AM
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Re: Silicon content in forged pistons.... (toyosupr)
Thanks for the informative replys guys. I had the block checked by another machinist and got the same answer. So I decided to switch pistons. Running Arias (2618) 12:1 now (.0030 Piston to wall clearance). All machine work was done by the same shop, and my motor is extremely quiet. I'm happy now.
Not to start a war here or anything. But Larry, my machinist called you and was surprised with your lack of information. Maybe you guys just didn't communicate clearly? I'm not going to speculate.
I bought these pistons from a friend. They are in a Wiseco Box with "Endyn Energy Dynamics" on the label. The number was 713375660.
Not to start a war here or anything. But Larry, my machinist called you and was surprised with your lack of information. Maybe you guys just didn't communicate clearly? I'm not going to speculate.
I bought these pistons from a friend. They are in a Wiseco Box with "Endyn Energy Dynamics" on the label. The number was 713375660.
07-19-2003, 10:08 AM
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Re: Silicon content in forged pistons.... (dplatt)
hey dplatt..i'm interested in your used pistons..if you can e-mail me at fokeu@aol.com i'll might be interested in them ..leave a number where i can contact you..thanks!
07-19-2003, 03:20 PM
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Re: Silicon content in forged pistons.... (jdmFantasyEk9)
I'm not sure what information he asked about, but we spend a lot of time everyday discussing clearances, etc with machine shops. If your machinist didn't ask the questions, it's difficult to read his mind....
