beenba

Hi Guys,

My car was tuned on RC engineering 750cc injectors (the ones that do not need a resistor box). Car was tuned making 450whp and all was well.

I have sold the RC 750cc and now have bought some Injector Nation 1000cc injectors (same as ID 1000cc pretty much).

Here is my issue. I removed the 750cc injectors and put the stock injectors back in, just so I could drive the car home. In eCtune I changed the existing 750cc to 240cc and also changed the battery offset to the proper table as you can below. After a quick Overall fuel trim adjustment of a few percent the car was idling fine and I drove it home (with the AFRs all in spec).

Ok so tonight I swapped in the 1000cc injectors. Here are some pics:

This is what the setup was like with the 750cc RCs:


I then made the following changes for my 1000cc injectors (my fuel pressure is 50psi).


The car ran like total crap, and the AFR was well beyond 19:1 on my wideband.....I was like WTF so I did the following...


as you can see I have added 99% overall fuel trim.....and the car was still only idling at 18.5 AFR roughly, and was missing etc.......

So I then did this:


I was pretty much just playing around to see what would happen. With the 650cc value, and the battery offset table set to 710cc injectors, the car idled a lot better at 13.5 AFR.

Do you think I have the wrong injectors????? I bought them directly from Injector Nation from this website, and maybe it was a simple mixup.....

Or am I doing something wrong? From my understanding, when you install new injectors you shouldnt have to change your fuel table curves much to get them to work. Just play with overall fuel trims and your 90% good to go I thought.

I'm sorry for the rant, but this is really bugging me and I would like to drive my car.

Here is a picture of my 1000cc injectors. As you can see the last digits of the serial number have been shaved off, so I cannot tell what flow rate they were originally...


Anything I am doing wrong, or do you think I do not have 1000cc injectors and they are 700s?

Thanks for any help guys.

beenba

Bump please

viper_boy403

iTrader: (1)

I'm not 100% sure on this, but isnt the scaling mostly used for going from currently tuned injectors to different ones to get a decent starting point? Since it was tuned on 750's, I'd think you should put 750cc in the "Stock injector flow rating" box, and then 1000cc in the following one. If you tell it you're going from 240's to 1000's its going to pull a TON of fuel which would explain the extreme lean issue

beenba

Thanks for the tip, but Im not too sure thats how it works. I will test tongiht, just to be sure though.

If you refer to the "Injector final multiplier" value, you can see when I had 240cc and 750cc in the respective boxes, it yeilded a value of 0.320.

When I go to 240cc and then 1000cc it yeilds a final multiple of 0.240, which makes perfect sense. Bigger injectors means they will need less fuel.

If I were to go 750cc in the stock injector, and then 1000cc in the new, it yeilds a final value of 0.750, which I think will run the engine PIG rich..

It could be a eCtune glitch for all I know, this software is full of them that's for sure...

Although I think I may have been sent 710cc injectors instead of 1000cc. I hope not. Going to play around some more tongiht...

beenba

Just tried the 750 and 1000 combo and was way too rich.
I'm stumped.

beenba

OK so i finished playing around with them for tonight.

I set the injectors to 240cc stock, and 1000cc new.

I eneded up having to add 45% more fuel to my entire vacuum portion of the map, and then once I spooled about 4lbs of boost it went lean at 14:1 AFR (should be 12:1)....

I totally have the wrong injectors i'm sure. This insn't that hard.

I hope HiProfile on here can resolve my issue to my satisfaction.

HiProfile

The orange ring is definitely my IN1000 injector, since my IN700 injector has no colored ring. My IN1000 uses a single outlet hole while my IN700 uses a 16-hole vectoring plate - a very distinct difference. My IN400 and IN900 injectors have longer bodies & don't use the black height adapter that the IN1000 and IN700 do.

I've had a customer drop these into a F22C that was tuned with ID1000's [which had been stolen] to ~400whp, and the old tune's AFR's were dead after the new injectors went in. When I say that, I mean they just installed & started the car up w/o changing the fuel map. It went on to make 467whp with duty to spare, so they certainly weren't as small as you're experiencing. I've also had a customer making mid 500's switch from Deatchwerks 1300's to the IN1000's to cure drivability issues, and anything over 500whp with 700cc injectors is more than a stretch.

One thing to note from the get-go, the best value to use for these 1000cc injectors for a Honda EMS is 925cc. It's the same with ID1000's, and a quick google search can confirm this for Heptane-based systems. The 1000cc is gasoline test rates & used for systems like MoTec, 925cc is Heptane test rates & used for most Honda-based EMS's such as eCtune. Using the Gasoline values usually leads to erratic idle issues.

The next step is to make sure you test with a fresh fuel map. Set the injector size to 240cc and use stock values for the vacuum columns to start. Now rescale the map to the proper size of [925 * square root of 50/43.5] 990cc. Select the latency values for ID1000's at 50psi. If it runs better, the RC injector values were probably off which had required excessive adjusting of low-load fuel cells.

If it still runs poorly, check your FPR & pulse damper. If you are running a china FPR with a stiff teflon diaphragm, toss it out and get something from Fuel Lab, Aeromotive, or SX. You'll also want to check the pulse damper (bulb on end of fuel rail) - sometimes they do fail or they can restrict fuel if you dont' use the correct crush ring with 4 tabs on the I.D. of the hole. If you have an aftermarket fuel rail with no pulse damper and especially if you have a B&M FPR kit, there's a good chance you're seeing horrible pulsations inside the fuel rail. I've had a customer have unusual lean issues on his Skunk2 rail (no damper, stock FPR), then swap to a friend's ID1000 set and have the same issues. The other issue could be from a failing fuel pump, but that's not nearly as common.


Below is a customer using two sets of IN900's (825cc for Honda EMS, effectively 1650cc) making 704whp with E85, note he ran out of fuel pump (dropping fuel pressure). If they were any smaller than 700cc, it'd have maxed duty cycle not dropped fuel pressure.

beenba

Thanks for the help HiProfile, and confirming that they are the 1000cc ones.

I will try some of the tips you mentioned tonight, and hopefully get things sorted out.

Just to clarify some of the questions you had, I have.

-aeromotive a1000 FPR
-walbro 255lph
-stock fuel rail

The only odd thing is, when I plugged the oem injectors back in the engine so I could drive it home, the maps seemed spot on. I only had to play with the final offset and it ended up being about 6%.

This is why I figured the 1000cc may have been 710cc since everything was off by so much.

HiProfile

It doesn't take much to really screw with large injectors. The ecu adds the latency value (in milliseconds) to the injector duty value (percentage of the current RPM's window). A variance of 0.1ms, which is 1/2000th the time it takes to blink your eye, can cause AFR's to be off by a full point at idle.

At 750rpm you have a 160ms window between injection events, so 100% duty would be 160ms and 1% duty would be 1.6ms. If you have a latency value of 1.02ms (13.5V) and a duty of 1%, your ecu sends a 2.62ms pulse. If your ecu thinks latency should be 0.83ms, it sends a 2.43ms pulse. The difference is 0.19ms - seems small enough, but that can lean out a 14.5 AFR by 2 full points! It would make 900cc injector appear as an 800cc injector. The same thing goes with the "tuned" fuel map from before. If the fuel cells were adjusted because the latency values weren't first nailed down, the larger injectors would run rich or lean. If for instance the RC values were input as 0.63ms (14v) but it should have 0.41ms (650cc RC, http://injector-rehab.com/shop/lag.html), the ecu thinks a 3ms pulse is a 2.37ms pulse w/o latency. It really should be a 2.59ms, which would result in AFR's being lean by more than 1 full point. Some of my math may be a bit off, but I'm just trying to show how a tune can go to hell.

Another thing that could affect your AFR's is if the previous fuel pressure difference wasn't done the same way as IN1000's. If the latency values & final fuel value weren't adjusted the right way, the resulting AFR's with different injectors would be off.

BTW to add to my previous post, make sure you get the new injector AFR's *identical* to the 240cc AFR values via adjusting latency first. Don't change the fuel map to adjust AFR's yet, nor should you try to target a richer AFR. Sometimes people use injectors that can't idle above 13:1 AFR's and they can't properly set the latency values since they can't match the OEM AFR's. To avoid that (only if needed), adjust the 240's to a slightly richer AFR, record that, then re-install the 1000's and adjust their AFR's to match via latency values.

beenba

Wow thanks for the tuning help.

Tonight wasn't a very good night weather wise, so tomorrow I will get things going again.

I'll post back and let you know.

Thanks again

beenba

Just to keep this updated.

Last night I did what HiProfile recommended, and he is absolutely correct. I set them to 990cc in eCtune, and also set them to id1000cc with 50psi for latency. I left the final offset at 0%, and played with tuning all the vacuum portions of the map.

I still had to add about 60% more fuel in my map down low to get all the AFRs in spec, but it seems up top (around 7psi and up) I only needed to add about 5% more fuel. Duty cycle in eCtune went from about 80% with the 750cc, and now its at about 67% with the 1000cc.

As you can see my fuel maps also are very linear now, and do not need to ramp up like the old RC750cc's did. Maybe this is what HiProfile explained with the latency values not being 100% correct with the RCs.

My 750cc vacuum portion of map:


And now with the 1000cc's roughed in.


I can even idle the car at about 850rpm now with the Pro1s...was never able to do that before.


I recommended these injectors and all is well now....I always figured injector swaps were simple, hence why I thought i had the wrong ones becasue I had to add 60% down low, but it makes up for it up top. Just a few fine tuning things to do now.

Thanks again HiProfile.

HiProfile

I'm glad I was able to help out. Let me know if you get any good pictures of the install or vids of your car in action.

Now turn up the boost!!!