skyline315

Hello everybody. Long story here with lot's of background information, but I'm very eager to hear some opinions.

I've had a very frustrating few months with my Civic (49,000 miles), and I wanted to run the situation by everyone to get your thoughts.

My check engine light came on in late August, and the shop informed me that it was throwing an error for the rocker arm (P2647, if I remember correctly). They determined that the sensor had gone bad, so they replaced it. I asked if this was a common issue and was told that it was very rare, and probably a manufacturer's defect. (~$500 repair)

Everything seemed fine for 3-4 weeks until the check engine light came back on with the exact same code. They told me that the oil was dirty despite the fact that I had gotten it changed only about 1,000 miles before. According to them, dirty oil could cause the problem, and this was likely since I hadn't used a genuine Honda filter on my last oil change. I told them politely that they were full of it, but they were adamant that this was the most likely cause. I said okay against my good judgment. (~$20-$30)

Sure enough, the code came back a couple of days later. Finally, they take me seriously and give the car to their lead tech. He contacts Honda to help solve the problem, and they find misfires in the engine, which lead them to two cracked cylinder heads in the engine. Finally, a solution that made sense to me. It took them a week to get it fixed (covered by the powertrain warranty). They told me that after re-assembling the engine the car was not starting properly. They resolved this by replacing the spark plugs, and just for kicks, they changed one of the belts that was worn and cracking. At this point, I brought up the fact that I had paid for them to replace the sensor that was obviously not the correct fix. They said that the sensor was definitely bad, and that both factors were contributing to the check engine light.

The day after taking the car home, the check engine light was back on. I returned to the shop rather angrily, and was told that the code was for an oxygen sensor. They said that the sensor was responding normally when they tested it, but that they recommended replacement. I told them to reset the code and left. My argument was that this could not be a simple coincidence, but they were resolute in the fact that the previous repairs could in no possible way have caused the oxygen sensor to malfunction. Basically, it was just bad luck.

The car drove normally for nearly a month until yesterday when the O2 sensor threw another code. I had it replaced due to impatience and just wanting to be done with this mess. (~$260)

So, anyway, after all of that, my question is how upset should I be? Do I have the right to complain or is my mechanical ignorance causing me to see problems where there are none? Are the two error codes a complete coincidence or could they be connected somehow? At this point I'm just frustrated and hoping to gain a little knowledge about these issues. If the check engine light comes back on, which I pretty much expect at this point, I'd like to be informed when I take the car back, wherever I end up taking it to.

Thanks so much for any and all insight you can offer!

delsolproblems

They screwed you a little, I'm sorry to say. The odds of a bad sensor causing the exact same code as your cracked head are almost astronomical. I'll bet any amount that they know they screwed up the first time and won't admit it to avoid looking like idiots or swindlers. Any reputable shop would refund the first charge unless they could demonstrate how the sensor was displaying improper electrical readings.

delsolproblems

I would file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau. If it makes the shop think twice before doing this to someone else, it's well worth the time.

skyline315

Thanks for the reply.

I've considered it.

I haven't spoken to their service manager about the issue yet, however, and was considering doing that first.

Before I did anything, though, I wanted to get some opinions on the matter since my car knowledge is minimal at best. The stats teacher in me, though, suspected the odds were rather high against their explanation.

Any thoughts as to the O2 sensor? Is there any logical explanation for that going bad the day after all the work that was done?

delsolproblems

If the O2 sensor got coated with alot of soot and whatnot from combustion problems due the cracked head, it could have started having problems. It's more likely that the O2 failed in addition to the cracked head than the arm sensor. Don't hesitate to tell them that you'll file a report if they won't work with you on this.

skyline315

The light came back on this morning, and while at the shop I told them I expected a refund on the previous repairs. The tech said that was reasonable and that he'd bring it up with the service manager. If he doesn't, then I certainly will.

So, we'll see...at the same time, I'd love to know what in the world is going on with my car to cause all of these problems.

delsolproblems

O2 again? The tech sounds like a good guy. Good shops usually show you the problem when they find it. Seeing the broken part or incorrect readings with your own eyes virtually eliminates the chance that you'll think it was actually working fine.

skyline315

I haven't heard from them, so I don't know if it's the same code or not. I thought a bad O2 sensor would be pretty straightforward, though. If it's the same code, then I would assume the O2 sensor was actually fine, but I'd also be surprised that they misdiagnosed that issue. If it's something else, then I really have no clue as to what's going on.

I have to think it's all related somehow, though. To think that a low-mileage Civic would have this many unrelated problems all at the same time would be a pretty tough theory to swallow.

delsolproblems

I have to admit, whatever caused the head to crack could have caused other problems as well. It might help shed some light on the commonalities to know what happened to the head.

delsolproblems

Just a thought- If the motor was overheating, that could crack the head, ruin the O2 and continue to cause other problems. Ask the shop to double check engine temp with a laser thermometer.

skyline315

Yeah, I'd love the answer to that myself. I'm not sure what would cause a cylinder head (or two of them) to go bad in the first place.

The ONLY thing I can think of was an odd problem that happened while the car was still under warranty. I got in my car one day and heard a very loud noise...it almost sounded like something grinding. The car drove normally other than the noise. On the 30 minute drive to the shop, the noise came and went. At one point the noise appeared again, and was followed by a loud clunk, and then it was completely gone. At the shop, they test drove it for two days just to be sure it didn't reappear, and they couldn't find any problems other than the emergency break which had tightened up. They loosened that up and it's been fine since. *shrug*

I was also involved in one minor accident where I had to have my bumper and one tail light replaced. Other than that, there haven't been any "traumas" to speak of, haha.

skyline315

Thanks, I'll mention it.

skyline315

Turns out it was the same O2 sensor code as yesterday. They've sent a snapshot of the car to Honda for them to diagnose. *sigh*

skyline315

Alright, we're hopefully making some progress. Forgive me if I don't make much sense, but I got a lot of information over the phone and didn't have time to write it down.

The O2 error code was being triggered by a leak in the fuel injection line. The fuel was leaking, which caused the system to run a little rich, and therefore triggering the error on the O2 sensor. It also explains the drop in gas mileage I had noticed recently. They did the repairs today free of charge (~$480). Their lead foreman test drove it afterwords and everything is running more smoothly. He gave me a lot of numbers that I didn't have time to write down the meaning of, but the gist of it is that they went from abnormal before the repair (.90) to good after the repair (1.03).

Now, the question is what caused the fuel injection leak. It still find it too much of a coincidence that his happened the day after getting my car back from the engine repair.

I'm going to work with their service manager to see what can be done about a refund on the original rocker arm sensor replacement. If nothing else, I don't think they can deflect the blame on that one.

delsolproblems

Ahhhh so the code was O2 detecting a rich/lean condition. I pull codes all the time and would almost never think that code was most likely a bad O2. I mean sometimes it is but not as often as it is one of many other problems. Since it tested properly for them, they really should have known to check other things. According to your story, the fuel line broke while they were working on the head. They're fixing it for free so see if you can get a refund on the first sensor replacement and be done with them.

skyline315

I did get a refund for the original repairs, so I don't have much to complain about at this point as long as it truly is fixed. For all of the repairs, I ended up $260 out of pocket total.

The only concern left is whether or not the fuel injector was damaged during the cylinder head repair. According to the guy I'm working with, the fuel injector assembly stays completely in tact during the repair along with the wiring, so he doesn't feel the two issues are connected. I still find it a hard coincidence to believe, but there's not much I can do about that.

Other than that lingering question, I feel like they handled the situation fairly. The manager did not hesitate in offering a refund...there was no haggling or questioning once she looked over the files. I'm certainly not satisfied with the original tech I worked with that handled the rocker arm valve/sensor replacement and oil change. Once I got the new tech, however, all of the fixes made sense beyond the oxygen sensor, which he owned up to immediately.

I guess my final satisfaction depends on whether or not I've seen the end of these problems. If the check engine light comes on again, I'm not sure I'll be able to handle myself in an appropriate manner