Toe or camber?
05-06-2007, 07:29 PM
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Toe or camber?
I gotta 98 civic with stock shocks and eibach lowering springs. My tires are wearing thin on the inner sidewall pretty badly. Does this have to do with camber or toe? Do I need to get a camber kit to correct it, or if it is toe, what can I do to correct the toe? If it is camber, how do I "shim" the rear?
Modified by jdmturbo1127 at 10:18 PM 5/6/2007
Modified by jdmturbo1127 at 10:18 PM 5/6/2007
05-06-2007, 10:35 PM
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Re: Toe or camber? (SLOW_TEAL_HATCH)
How exactly is that adjusted? Do I need any aftermarket parts or can it be done at the alignment shop without anything special?
05-07-2007, 07:21 AM
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Re: (chrisw85)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chrisw85 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There are factory adjustments for toe on our hondas. Get each wheel aligned to 0-toe.</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jdmturbo1127 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How exactly is that adjusted? Do I need any aftermarket parts or can it be done at the alignment shop without anything special?</TD></TR></TABLE>
take it to a shop...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jdmturbo1127 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How exactly is that adjusted? Do I need any aftermarket parts or can it be done at the alignment shop without anything special?</TD></TR></TABLE>
take it to a shop...
05-07-2007, 09:16 PM
#7
Honda-Tech Member
Re: (clean rice)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by clean rice »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Camber is whats wearing your tires. The toe will affect it also yes, BUT camber wears the tires faster.</TD></TR></TABLE>
we all say youre wrong.
correction: we all KNOW youre wrong.
we all say youre wrong.
correction: we all KNOW youre wrong.
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05-07-2007, 09:35 PM
#9
Re: (clean rice)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by clean rice »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Camber is whats wearing your tires. The toe will affect it also yes, BUT camber wears the tires faster. </TD></TR></TABLE>
if that is true, then how come, when and if my tires are at -2.5 deg up front and toe is 1/4" out (extreme example) my tires wear at least four times faster than the same -2.5 camber but 0-toe??
Camber does not wear tires faster, it is more of a directional alignment angle than a 'wear' angle, that is to say that out-of-whack camber has less effect on tire wear than out-of-whack toe does. If your toe is not set correctly at either stock or modified suspension settings, you will wear your tires faster. Toe that is not set right is like dragging your tires sideways the whole way down the street.
if that is true, then how come, when and if my tires are at -2.5 deg up front and toe is 1/4" out (extreme example) my tires wear at least four times faster than the same -2.5 camber but 0-toe??
Camber does not wear tires faster, it is more of a directional alignment angle than a 'wear' angle, that is to say that out-of-whack camber has less effect on tire wear than out-of-whack toe does. If your toe is not set correctly at either stock or modified suspension settings, you will wear your tires faster. Toe that is not set right is like dragging your tires sideways the whole way down the street.
05-07-2007, 09:50 PM
#10
Re: (chrisw85)
With toe settings, you're more less "pushing" the entire tread of the tire down the road, which is a much larger patch of rubber vs. a tire that is only wearing on 1" width of total rubber.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chrisw85 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if that is true, then how come, when and if my tires are at -2.5 deg up front and toe is 1/4" out (extreme example) my tires wear at least four times faster than the same -2.5 camber but 0-toe??
</TD></TR></TABLE>
OF COURSE they are gonna wear faster, you're puting more stress on the tire!? When I added positive toe to my car, my tire life was substanially improved
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chrisw85 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if that is true, then how come, when and if my tires are at -2.5 deg up front and toe is 1/4" out (extreme example) my tires wear at least four times faster than the same -2.5 camber but 0-toe??
</TD></TR></TABLE>
OF COURSE they are gonna wear faster, you're puting more stress on the tire!? When I added positive toe to my car, my tire life was substanially improved
05-07-2007, 09:55 PM
#11
Re: (chrisw85)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chrisw85 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Toe that is not set right is like dragging your tires sideways the whole way down the street.</TD></TR></TABLE>
In the 11 years that I have worked at a tire shop, the only time I have EVER seen this even close to being true is from a car that was wrecked. That statement was waaay over dramatic. I'm so drunk right now!
In the 11 years that I have worked at a tire shop, the only time I have EVER seen this even close to being true is from a car that was wrecked. That statement was waaay over dramatic. I'm so drunk right now!
05-07-2007, 10:04 PM
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clean rice you are retarded get your facts right. i know you have never worked in a tire shop because if you did you would know that toe will kill your tires in no time.
to get kicks out of your answers, and since you "worked" at a tire shop for 11 years, can you explain why factory sets 1-3 degrees negative camber and 0 toe?
to get kicks out of your answers, and since you "worked" at a tire shop for 11 years, can you explain why factory sets 1-3 degrees negative camber and 0 toe?
05-07-2007, 10:10 PM
#13
Re: (clean rice)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by clean rice »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">With toe settings, you're more less "pushing" the entire tread of the tire down the road, which is a much larger patch of rubber vs. a tire that is only wearing on 1" width of total rubber. </TD></TR></TABLE>
beers aside, that doesn't make the most sense?
As i said, off toe settings is like dragging the tire sideways down the road but not really, i only said that because its the easiest way to understand it.
I think of toe as...an accelerent when camber is more negative. Camber and toe go hand in hand for tire wear, yes i agree with that. How does camber wear tires more or be the 'bigger factor' in tire wear when -4 degrees & 0-toe wears at a slower rate than the same -4.0camber & -1/4 toe? If camber does wear tires more than toe does by your statement, then the above example would wear just as much with both 0 and -1/4 toe...would it not?
beers aside, that doesn't make the most sense?
As i said, off toe settings is like dragging the tire sideways down the road but not really, i only said that because its the easiest way to understand it.
I think of toe as...an accelerent when camber is more negative. Camber and toe go hand in hand for tire wear, yes i agree with that. How does camber wear tires more or be the 'bigger factor' in tire wear when -4 degrees & 0-toe wears at a slower rate than the same -4.0camber & -1/4 toe? If camber does wear tires more than toe does by your statement, then the above example would wear just as much with both 0 and -1/4 toe...would it not?
05-07-2007, 10:31 PM
#14
Re: (chrisw85)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chrisw85 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">when -4 degrees & 0-toe wears at a slower rate than the same -4.0camber & -1/4 toe?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Because you are adding more stress to the tire. With zero toe, you are only rolling on the tire. With camber AND negative toe, you're pushing it too. Yes I understand that.
What I am saying is:
If you have a tire with perfect camber, and positive toe. You will get MORE life out of that tire than if you have negative camber, 0 toe.(Depending on tire size).
Car manufactures set the angles for handling and safety purposes. If they were really concerned about tire wear, why would they underinflate the tires?? Vehicle manfufactures could give a **** about tire mileage, they are more concerned with safety polls and **** like that. Ford/Firestone recall anyone??
Modified by clean rice at 7:47 AM 5/8/2007
Because you are adding more stress to the tire. With zero toe, you are only rolling on the tire. With camber AND negative toe, you're pushing it too. Yes I understand that.
What I am saying is:
If you have a tire with perfect camber, and positive toe. You will get MORE life out of that tire than if you have negative camber, 0 toe.(Depending on tire size).
Car manufactures set the angles for handling and safety purposes. If they were really concerned about tire wear, why would they underinflate the tires?? Vehicle manfufactures could give a **** about tire mileage, they are more concerned with safety polls and **** like that. Ford/Firestone recall anyone??
Modified by clean rice at 7:47 AM 5/8/2007
05-07-2007, 10:32 PM
#15
Re: (QuangAlang)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by QuangAlang »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> i know you have never worked in a tire shop </TD></TR></TABLE>
Goes to show how much you know me guy. Yes I have been working tires for 11 years, sorry to dissapoint.
Goes to show how much you know me guy. Yes I have been working tires for 11 years, sorry to dissapoint.
05-07-2007, 10:34 PM
#16
Re: (chrisw85)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chrisw85 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
As i said, off toe settings is like dragging the tire sideways down the road but not really, i only said that because its the easiest way to understand it.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Being Honda-Tech, and most of us are fwd, I think "pushing" would be a little better than "dragging" but whatever.
As i said, off toe settings is like dragging the tire sideways down the road but not really, i only said that because its the easiest way to understand it.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Being Honda-Tech, and most of us are fwd, I think "pushing" would be a little better than "dragging" but whatever.
05-07-2007, 10:57 PM
#17
Honda-Tech Member
Re: (clean rice)
1" of tire tread on the ground? um yeah, we all get 25 degrees of negative camber when lowering 1.7" of ride height.
really, if thats what 11 years of experience has told you, you best quit.
really, if thats what 11 years of experience has told you, you best quit.
05-07-2007, 11:15 PM
#18
Re: (clean rice)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by clean rice »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Because you are adding more stress to the tire. With zero toe, you are only rolling on the tire. With camber AND negative toe, you're dragging it too. Yes I understand that.
What I am saying is:
If you have a tire with perfect camber, and positive toe. You will get MORE life out of that tire than if you have negative camber, 0 toe.(Depending on tire size).</TD></TR></TABLE>
There is no 'perfect' camber angle. If by saying 'perfect' you meant 0 degrees camber as perfect, then you should tell that to any car make that deviates from that. The best way to validate what you said would be by using your example and testing two same cars but with the different angles and measuring the tire temp with a probe pyrometer across the tread width, this should tell you how much 'pressure/weight' is where on the tire. Sidewalls flex, tires flex (its the nature of a radial tire); negative camber doesn't necessarily mean that the inside is getting worn more. With negative camber you are still 'rolling on the tire.' 0 camber and 0 toe could lead to irregular tire wear because as suspension is 'dynamic', toe and camber curves are affected during bump and rebound. Certain set static angles are required to either minimize the curves' range or maximize them.
Your original statement "Camber is whats wearing your tires. The toe will affect it also yes, BUT camber wears the tires faster"
Camber [only] wears the tires faster if the toe is incorrectly set. If the toe is correctly set, camber, regardless of its negativity, will not have a significant effect on the tires' wear; camber's effect in this case is not as heavily weighted as an incorrect toe setting would be. This is my own personal experience with my own car at various camber and toe settings.
Because you are adding more stress to the tire. With zero toe, you are only rolling on the tire. With camber AND negative toe, you're dragging it too. Yes I understand that.
What I am saying is:
If you have a tire with perfect camber, and positive toe. You will get MORE life out of that tire than if you have negative camber, 0 toe.(Depending on tire size).</TD></TR></TABLE>
There is no 'perfect' camber angle. If by saying 'perfect' you meant 0 degrees camber as perfect, then you should tell that to any car make that deviates from that. The best way to validate what you said would be by using your example and testing two same cars but with the different angles and measuring the tire temp with a probe pyrometer across the tread width, this should tell you how much 'pressure/weight' is where on the tire. Sidewalls flex, tires flex (its the nature of a radial tire); negative camber doesn't necessarily mean that the inside is getting worn more. With negative camber you are still 'rolling on the tire.' 0 camber and 0 toe could lead to irregular tire wear because as suspension is 'dynamic', toe and camber curves are affected during bump and rebound. Certain set static angles are required to either minimize the curves' range or maximize them.
Your original statement "Camber is whats wearing your tires. The toe will affect it also yes, BUT camber wears the tires faster"
Camber [only] wears the tires faster if the toe is incorrectly set. If the toe is correctly set, camber, regardless of its negativity, will not have a significant effect on the tires' wear; camber's effect in this case is not as heavily weighted as an incorrect toe setting would be. This is my own personal experience with my own car at various camber and toe settings.
05-08-2007, 06:07 AM
#19
Re: (chrisw85)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chrisw85 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> If the toe is correctly set, camber, regardless of its negativity, will not have a significant effect on the tires' wear; </TD></TR></TABLE>
My results have proved differently. Sure adding toe slowed the wear down, but I still go through tires. Every car is different though, meh.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1" of tire tread on the ground? </TD></TR></TABLE>
I deal with customers almost everyday bitching how they only got 8k on a set of new tires with there 90 4 door Integra on 18's that has been lowered over 3 inches. Yes, it literally looks like the tire only wore on the first 1, maybe 1 1/2" of the inside shoulder. How many customers have YOU dealt with like this? Oh wait, you sell T shirts nevermind.
My results have proved differently. Sure adding toe slowed the wear down, but I still go through tires. Every car is different though, meh.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1" of tire tread on the ground? </TD></TR></TABLE>
I deal with customers almost everyday bitching how they only got 8k on a set of new tires with there 90 4 door Integra on 18's that has been lowered over 3 inches. Yes, it literally looks like the tire only wore on the first 1, maybe 1 1/2" of the inside shoulder. How many customers have YOU dealt with like this? Oh wait, you sell T shirts nevermind.
05-08-2007, 06:37 AM
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Re: (clean rice)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by clean rice »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
My results have proved differently. Sure adding toe slowed the wear down, but I still go through tires. Every car is different though, meh.
I deal with customers almost everyday bitching how they only got 8k on a set of new tires with there 90 4 door Integra on 18's that has been lowered over 3 inches. Yes, it literally looks like the tire only wore on the first 1, maybe 1 1/2" of the inside shoulder.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Probably cuz they haven't had their toe set to zero?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by clean rice »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> How many customers have YOU dealt with like this? Oh wait, you sell T shirts nevermind.</TD></TR></TABLE>
immaturity
My results have proved differently. Sure adding toe slowed the wear down, but I still go through tires. Every car is different though, meh.
I deal with customers almost everyday bitching how they only got 8k on a set of new tires with there 90 4 door Integra on 18's that has been lowered over 3 inches. Yes, it literally looks like the tire only wore on the first 1, maybe 1 1/2" of the inside shoulder.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Probably cuz they haven't had their toe set to zero?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by clean rice »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> How many customers have YOU dealt with like this? Oh wait, you sell T shirts nevermind.</TD></TR></TABLE>
immaturity
05-08-2007, 07:59 AM
#21
Re: (clean rice)
It took us so damn long to finally drown the myth (in this forum) that negative camber is bad. Now you come in here and try to undo all of our hard work. All of us have lowered civics, integras, sols & crxs with extra negative camber and report no abnormal tire wear. We have been telling people not to buy camber kits for several years now, and never got a single complaint (as long as the person aligned the car and reset the bushings). This is experience, not tire-wear "general theory". This is how these cars work and react to suspension mods. If you don't drive like a grandma around turns, or do burn-outs, then negative camber can be your best friend.
Perhaps since your from the all-motor drag-racing sect, you personally feel that zero camber is best (because in that situation it is). But when it comes to performance street suspensions, or road-race/auto-x setups, the factory recomended "zero" degrees of camber plain sucks...
It's also an undeniable fact, that very low Hondas with the necessary increased compression stroke will bottom out the front upper control arms first when you use front camber kits. This especially sucks since you will dent up your shock towers and ruin your UCA ball-joint (and eventually wheel bearings).
You should also keep in mind that as a tire tech, you were given information that would cause you to unknowingly up-sell customers extra alignment parts.
Perhaps since your from the all-motor drag-racing sect, you personally feel that zero camber is best (because in that situation it is). But when it comes to performance street suspensions, or road-race/auto-x setups, the factory recomended "zero" degrees of camber plain sucks...
It's also an undeniable fact, that very low Hondas with the necessary increased compression stroke will bottom out the front upper control arms first when you use front camber kits. This especially sucks since you will dent up your shock towers and ruin your UCA ball-joint (and eventually wheel bearings).
You should also keep in mind that as a tire tech, you were given information that would cause you to unknowingly up-sell customers extra alignment parts.
05-08-2007, 08:55 AM
#22
Honda-Tech Member
Re: (94eg!)
I've been getting my alignments done for the past two years with no camber kit and only adjusting the toe. No problems with tire wear what-so-ever. And this car get's autocrossed monthly. 
clean rice...you need to get out of the tire business.
clean rice...you need to get out of the tire business.
05-08-2007, 09:48 AM
#23
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Re: (94eg!)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94eg! »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We have been telling people not to buy camber kits for several years now, and never got a single complaint (as long as the person aligned the car and reset the bushings).</TD></TR></TABLE>
What's this reset the bushings deal¿ Any more info on this?
What's this reset the bushings deal¿ Any more info on this?
05-08-2007, 10:03 AM
#24
Re: (CAN97SH)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CAN97SH »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
What's this reset the bushings deal¿ Any more info on this? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes there is tons of info on this. Basically, whenever you change your ride height, you must reset all the bushings. This means loosing all bolts that go through the center of a bushing, and then tightening & torquing them with the car at it's new ride height. This is important because it relieves any twist in the OEM rubber parts that results form the suspension being in the bump position all the time. It will allow the bushings to last just as long as they do on a stock vehicle (100k+ miles)...
I do it by placing the entire vehicle on jack stands. Then pick a corner and jack up an LCA until the car just barely lifts off the nearest jack-stand. Now loosen (several turns) all bolts that go through the center of a bushing. Next you simply re toqure them all to spec. Now let the LCA down and move on to the next corner of the car. And once your done, go get yourself an alignment, and consider your suspension work done...
On 88-00 Civics, all tegs, and all del sols, this works on every bushing except the oversized rear trailing arm bushings, and the inside rear UCA bushings. These bushings must be removed and "clocked" to relieve the twist. Most people don't do this as it's a pain in the *** and requires special tools. It would be best to simply replace them later on (after the originals tear up) and then clock the new ones when you install them.
Also, this doesn't apply to any sway-bar bushings, as they are not fused into position by inner sleeves...
This is some info you won't get at your local tire-shop...
What's this reset the bushings deal¿ Any more info on this? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes there is tons of info on this. Basically, whenever you change your ride height, you must reset all the bushings. This means loosing all bolts that go through the center of a bushing, and then tightening & torquing them with the car at it's new ride height. This is important because it relieves any twist in the OEM rubber parts that results form the suspension being in the bump position all the time. It will allow the bushings to last just as long as they do on a stock vehicle (100k+ miles)...
I do it by placing the entire vehicle on jack stands. Then pick a corner and jack up an LCA until the car just barely lifts off the nearest jack-stand. Now loosen (several turns) all bolts that go through the center of a bushing. Next you simply re toqure them all to spec. Now let the LCA down and move on to the next corner of the car. And once your done, go get yourself an alignment, and consider your suspension work done...
On 88-00 Civics, all tegs, and all del sols, this works on every bushing except the oversized rear trailing arm bushings, and the inside rear UCA bushings. These bushings must be removed and "clocked" to relieve the twist. Most people don't do this as it's a pain in the *** and requires special tools. It would be best to simply replace them later on (after the originals tear up) and then clock the new ones when you install them.
Also, this doesn't apply to any sway-bar bushings, as they are not fused into position by inner sleeves...
This is some info you won't get at your local tire-shop...
05-08-2007, 10:11 AM
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Re: (94eg!)
Awesome info, thanks 
I didn't realize this and it's a good thing my suspension hasn't come in yet otherwise I would have just installed/aligned and called it a day. I wonder if Honda will do this for me when I get the alignment done...
I didn't realize this and it's a good thing my suspension hasn't come in yet otherwise I would have just installed/aligned and called it a day. I wonder if Honda will do this for me when I get the alignment done...
