dgdarien

Trying to make my '00 Civic a bit more comfortable for a daily driver. It's on H&R Sport Springs with KYB AGX struts but the ride quality is really rough, especially over any sort of bumps or imperfections on the road. What if I put the stock springs with the KYB AGXs, what kind of results should I expect? A smoother ride quality but still with some sportyness because of the AGXs?

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Are the AGX's still in good shape? Maybe the shocks are blown and that's why you're getting such a bad ride?

If you have stock springs and a compressor, you could give it a shot. If the car is still bouncy and hard to control (after an alignment), then your shocks may be worn out.

Putting stock springs onto shocks kinda really sucks, though. So make sure you have a real compressor, and good luck.

dgdarien

How can I diagnose if the AGXs are still in good shape? Doing a push on each corner they still seem stiff.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Have you tried adjusting the damping to make them ride better? How do you currently have your damping set?

dgdarien

I always ride with them on their softest settings unless I plan to do any spirited driving.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Try adjusting them slightly stiffer. Maybe they're under damped.

Are they leaking? Any noises?

dgdarien

I've noticed a creaking sound sometimes from the rear right when I'm driving at times, but I'm not sure if that's an issue.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Adjust the damping and see if they become more comfortable. H&R sports aren't too much spring for those shocks.

Unless you meant that you have H&R race?

dgdarien

They are definitely Sport and not Race; I didn't want anything too aggressive. Wouldn't adjusting the damping to firmer settings make the ride quality more uncomfortable?

Tyson

ride quality is more than shocks and springs.

bushings.

balljoints.

steering rack.

tires. type and size.

pretty much everything that moves along with the suspension matters.

your car is just old. bushings are probably done and need replacement. stock is best.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Not if the springs are currently under damped. Too soft of a shock is uncomfortable too.

And Tyson is correct.

dgdarien

Yeah I know suspension is quite complicated. I'll try running a bit stiffer settings to see if there's any sort of under damped problems. And I'll inspect the bushings next time I'm under the car.

The most issue I have is when going over bumps on the freeway, it is quite jarring and transfers all of the 'shock' to the interior cabin and passengers. I guess that is to be expected with a bit stiffer springs but it feels a bit extreme, almost to the sense that the car wants to lose control. (But that may just be in my mind)

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Are you running bumpstops?

What type of bushings? What type of tires? When is the last time you got an alignment?

dgdarien

Not running aftermarket bumpstops.

Car is on original bushings.

195/45/16 Falken Ziex 912s, will need to be replaced soon. Alignment was done when I bought the new tires, about 5 years ago.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Check to see if there is anything left of your bumpstops. These cars use the bumpstops as part of the spring. If they are deteriorated, the shock body can make contact with the top hat and bushing and make a loud bang.

If your toe angles are off, the tires are glancing off of bumps and will cause harshness.

Do you have a picture of how low the car is?

dgdarien

My struts have their dustcovers installed, so I'm not able to inspect the bumpstops, I think I'd at least have to remove the wheels to be able to see.

I've never heard any loud bangs when going over large bumps at speed; so I don't think anything is hitting each other or bottoming out.

It's not too low, you can kind of see it in this photo.

KoRn_vIRuZ

An underdamped car (= blown shocks) does not feel rough, it feels floaty.
Yes, you should see a noticeable improvement in ride quality by reverting to stock springs. Also, you will want to install smaller wheels with higher profile tires. Those look like 16" and even 15"s ride rough on my lowered EK, let alone 16"s...

B serious

iTrader: (1)

A car that is underdamped for compression will feel crashy. Especially with springs that low. The suspension will contact bumpstops and abruptly force the car upwards. If, at that point, it is under damped for rebound, it will float upward....then crash downward for the next bump...and so on. Underdamped shocks can cause a crashy, uncomfortable ride if the suspension has inadequate travel. Almost any lowered car has inadequate travel to leave the shocks soft.

I'm assuming his shocks adjust bump and rebound simultaneously.

KoRn_vIRuZ

Yes, floaty/bouncy, the terminology is debatable but that's the basic feeling.

I somehow don't feel this is what the OP is experiencing though. I think he is talking about general lack of compliance, which is something I get on my own EK.

Take an expansion joint for instance. That doesn't make the car body move enough to hit the bump stops yet it will feel super rough with a sporty suspension setup. With stock suspension you almost don't feel it.

A lowered car will be a rougher/harder car. There is less travel so the suspension must be harder, i.e. move less. This becomes a lot worse with low profile tires, which also have less give. Hell, on my EK I get a shock from just hitting the white paint on a crosswalk, which is like 2-3 mm in height?

I've been told very high end suspension (e.g. Ohlins Dual Flow Valve technology) will mitigate this to a degree, but the compromise is always there.

If the OP wants to be comfortable, going back to stock is the best way to do it.

The only comfortable lowered EK that I rode in had Eibach Pro-kit springs on stock shocks. But alas, it was underdamped and bottomed out on large dips/bumps! So in practice it was worse than a rough-riding but well damped car.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Shock valving in the Öhlins DFV is digressive...and it has a third flowpath for "very high speed" piston velocity.

From what I've found (I have a car with double adjustable shocks), increasing low speed compression to the point that it is *slightly* over damped, and combining that with a rebound setting that's as close to critical as possible makes for a really good ride. The suspension does have to have enough travel to keep off its bumpstop...or at least it is hopefully it is equipped with progressive bumpstops.

If I just backed off compression too much...the rebound would pack the suspension down and it would become crashy. If I backed off rebound AND compression too much, it would be crashy as well as floaty. If I increased compression, but backed off rebound too much, the car became a pogo stick. All these situations would be described as "under damped". Also "uncomfortable AF".

Other things I have learned:

Never use polyurethane bushings.

Tires do have an impact on ride (pun intended)...but again...you can mitigate this with the dampers and spring rates. Dampers play a big part.

There are plenty of shocks that only have a single adjustment ****, but, if well engineered, will shift both (rebound/compression) curves to work well with each other. Bilstein is really good at that (they use an air spring). So is Öhlins (DFV). There are a couple settings on my Tein SA's (TSX) that are surprisingly good as well. Noteably, -2 and -4 up front, and -7 out back.

Civics/integras of the 90-01 vintage run out of front travel VERY fast. I wouldn't lower more than about 1.5 or 2" on stock length shocks. My ITR is lowered about .75" or so (so about 1.5 to 1.75" lower than a regular integra). I have about 1.5" or 1.75" of [b]TOTAL[/] shock travel remaining.

A rattling car will feel like it has a harsh suspension. When I had hardtop rattles on my S2000, I thought I needed to do something about the suspension. After fixing the rattles...it rode like effing silk again.

KoRn_vIRuZ

All good feedback.

I would add wheel weight to the list. I went from stock wheels to MF10Ls, which are like 60% of the weight and there was a noticeable improvement in ride comfort. But it's still not like stock.

Also, on regular-bodied coilovers (e.g. KW), ride height will make a big difference. A higher ride height will increase spring preload and completely ruin the ride in my experience.

I tried several different things to improve my EK's ride to near stock levels without it going with the stock 4x4 look and handling. It's cheap and easy to get it riding awesome on freeways (Koni/GC and you're done), but not on the real hard stuff (cobblestones are killer…)… I have mostly given up at this point . Thinking of getting a stock POS for daily duties.

On the cobbles there is basically no way around it. A nice tight suspension simply won't budge when moving slowly over the cobbles, so you'll be able to feel each and every one.

A friend with some trick custom-ordered KWs confirmed it for me: firm but pleasant on the highway, dreadful on the cobbles.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

KW's don't ride worse as you raise them up. I have 2 cars with KW suspensions (V3 and ST ST-X). They are engineered with shorter shock bodies and spring lengths that prevent over pre-loading. As long as you stay within their recommended specs (requires reading the manual), the car won't ride harshly. The springs are fairly short, so you can have the collars high up on the threads without over compressing the spring. They use helper springs to fill in the gap for fools that insist on slamming the car. In fact, the cars both ride better at their "max" height settings than they do at their "min" height settings.

"Max" height is a relative statement. This is almost as HIGH as m'lady's wagon will go. The rears are about 3 threads from being topped out. The fronts are close as well.



If I turn the springs upward, the tender spring will compress. By the time I reach the top thread, the main spring will JUST start to be preloaded. But the shock threads will run out of travel before the spring has enough power to fully extend the shock with the weight of the car on the ground even after I go past their max recommended spec. #engineering

Fronts:


KW's also come with extremely heavy rebound damping adjustability. On my V3's, even with up-rated 12k springs (factory KW is 9k), I cannot run the rebound adjuster near the top of its range or the shocks will pack down. So if you did have pre-loaded springs, you could cancel out their rowdyness with the rebound adjuster.

What you're talking about will happen with suspensions that have long enough springs that can be preloaded enough to "top out" the shock...and fairly soft rebound damping. This will cause the spring to fully extend the shock with barely any up-stroke of the suspension itself. I have gotten a set of Tein SS's to do that in an effort to raise a car to fit bigass snow tires. It rode like **** and turning the damper up only helped slightly.

As far as the 2nd part of your post....I'm not a Koni/GC hater. But...this is 2015. There's WAY better stuff out there.

Try a coilover that is body adjustable.

Tein's Flex-A has some pretty amazing technology and manufacturing processes. The ride is definitely going to be better than most Koni/GC combos.

Koni/GC doesn't transition from street to track like everyone on the internet claims. And they start riding badly after about 1.5" or maybe 2" of drop. They're great if you're looking for a customizable spring rate suspension for a weekend driven track car that you don't plan to lower by much. And theyre great to build off of. But...that's not what 90% of users use them for. People always talk about "how great they ride...except for in most situations" lol.

I've had experience with Koni/GC. They're like the swiss army knife of dampers. They work for many things...as long as youre ready to compromise on everything. For $500, they're great. But...they don't do ONE thing especially well. I feel that most people will never use their versatility in the way they are talked about.

They may not work for you over cobblestones because you either have it too low...or the damper turned too high, or both. Yellows only adjust for rebound curve. The bump curve is set....and does not move with the dial. Good for a shock that can accomodate spring rate changes to tune the suspension. But...that's not what you're doing. Your car is likely packing itself down over the succesive bumps. The car hits the first bump...and before the suspension can extend again, it hits the next bump. The shocks tuck in like a turtle tucking its legs over each bump. You get down to bumpstops eventually. It can be caused by:
-Too much damping compared to spring rate.
-Too low of ride height.

By design, Koni yellows are meant for relatively high ride heights.

Most lowering springs are so soft that even a 1.5" drop will be bordering too low.

Eibach pro kit springs noteably work very well with Koni Yellows. About a 1" drop.

My Tein Street Advance's control the car very well on the street (they won't work on a track...and they do not advertise them to do such), but I can drive over sharp bumps without feeling almost any harshness. My tires are 225/45/17 Pilot SS for summer or Conti EW for winter. 06 TSX MT. I've gone across washboarded gravel roads and the car soaked it right up. The car is 2.5" lower than stock. This can't be compared to a civic because TSX's have miles more suspension travel.

My 2 cents. I'm not an expert. Just talking subjectively from what I have actually experienced.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

However, I'm not talking subjectively about the shock travel limitations. My ITR is this height:



And has about 1.5" of total travel left. Not 1.5" before it hits bumpstops. But 1.5" before the shock hits tophat. Thats about 2.25" of wheel travel, if we're using a 1.5:1 MR.


Granted...the bumpstops are an integrated part of the suspension. But if you were lowered 2.5" from stock or something insane (a lot of people are)....you're smashing bumpstop 100% of the time.

I had 600LB springs on that ITR....and it was relatively easy to get the shocks to contact tophat with a loud bang. It also rode like dogshit. I have since installed bumpstops and gone with a 440LB front/513LB rear spring setup.

This is all factual and measurable info. My ITR is like 1" lower than a stock ITR.

KoRn_vIRuZ

That looks reasonable, similar to mine. Slamming a street car is just dumb (sorry if someone is offended by this). I only know of one corner where I am able to hit the bump stops.

It's a nasty downhill left hander with a large bump on the right hand side. The front right shock will hit the bump stop if I take it too fast.

I never measured but I can also tell that the KWs I have now have more travel than the Konis I had before (I need to go a dangerously fast to make contact with the bump stop, with the Konis it was a lot easier) so you may want to shorten the shock body.

Now with 513 lb/in rear springs you will loose your fillings on the cobbles, no way around it. I know you guys in the US don't have a lot of streets like that, but in Europe it'll make you crazy.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

The car is actually fine over most types of roads. Including rough train tracks. Admittedly, I've never driven it on cobblestones. At the height and damper settings I used...I was pretty impressed. Again...they are good shocks. It doesn't ride crazy good. But its acceptable, and its nice that they can accomodate a heavy rear spring for track use.