Combustion Contraption

gas ported lightweight wisecos would be good. Jun 3's or toda 3's are awesome and if you really want an all out race setup, the toda spec d's would be good. Get hondata and get it tuned!

FlipSkater

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LsVtec92Hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">gas ported lightweight wisecos would be good. Jun 3's or toda 3's are awesome and if you really want an all out race setup, the toda spec d's would be good. Get hondata and get it tuned!</TD></TR></TABLE>

word

colt45.5

I had dynamic stage 2s which are pretty close to a jun 3. well nearly identical high cam profiles actually. Im contemplating the skunk 2 stage 3s or toda d's and rollerwave strutted gas ported 11.5-12.0:1 cr.

Any tips as far as that goes?

Combustion Contraption

go with the toda's. im not one to follow hype, but i have heard alot of bad stuff about skunk2's cams, not their performance, but their durability.

CallMeJesus

great article, but i have to ask, did you understand it?

a quote,
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Any given car, in any given gear, will accelerate at a rate that *exactly* matches its torque curve (allowing for increased air and rolling resistance as speeds climb). Another way of saying this is that a car will accelerate hardest at its torque peak in any given gear, and will not accelerate as hard below that peak, or above it. Torque is the only thing that a driver feels, and horsepower is just sort of an esoteric measurement in that context.</TD></TR></TABLE>

then it goes on about the l98 v. lt1. thats great, but the lt1 just meaks out a victory on the strip. but you have to remember, if you proportioned its torque loss@5000 rpm's past its torque peak with your torque loss@8000 rpms past its torque peak, you would see your engine falls off at near 2x more.

just go to the track and see.

shant

why would you change gears before your peak hp? I shift after my peak to stay in the power band.

Combustion Contraption

Yes i understood the article. If i didnt, i wouldnt have posted the link to it.

Thank you shant. If you dont want to take advantage of high horsepower figures, dont drag a honda, cuz its all about high RPM and gearing to make up for the lack of torque. Do you understand what im saying?

Combustion Contraption

oh and another thing. i have been to the track. i have seen. And one thing is constant. You drag a honda, you rev the ******* **** out of it. its the only way to make power. Tell you what, next time i go, ill do two runs. One shifting at 75k and one at 6k we'll see which one is quicker.

ActiveAero

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CallMeJesus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

so if you shifted at 6k, you would keep vehicle momentum, stay within a more efficient breathing range, and probably shave time off of your time slip.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Please say you are joking. Look at the dyno graph. If he shifted at 6,000rpms he would drop down into the lowest part of his ENTIRE torque curve on every shift. Shifting were he does now he drops back down INTO the torque peak and accelerates on the HIGHER torque plane while taking advantage of gear multiplication of torque.

At either shift point you are only going to be at the torque peak for a bried period of time (beginning of the shift with the high rpm shift point, the end with a 6k shift point). If you did a torque average per gear rpm range you would see that the higher shift point will OWN a 6k shift point in area under the used curve.

Our engines abilities to sustain torque and make use of it over a high rpm range to take advantage of gearing torque mulitiplication is the only way are engines are as quick as they are.

If we went stickly on the torque curve alone considering no other factors a stock base model Cavilier would own a Type-R in a drag race.

CallMeJesus

huh? would drop him to the lowest part of the torque curve? i dont think so. it might drop back to where his torque is in a depression, but he would find himself in a stronger hp curve, shortly entering its most strongest point of where both torque and hp make huge gains over the period of 400 rpm's.

3000 rpm's: 72 hp / 129 ft-lbs.
4000 rpm's: 93 hp / 122 ft-lbs.
5000 rpm's: 116 hp / 122 ft-lbs.
6000 rpm's: 168 hp / 146 ft-lbs.
7000 rpm's: 187 hp / 141 ft-lbs.
8000 rpm's: 195 hp / 130 ft-lbs.
* 5500 rpm's: 131 hp / 125 ft-lbs.

look at the hp gain inbetween 3k and 4k rpm's, it is a 19hp difference. between 4k and 5k there is a 23hp difference, while torque stays the same. (while in actuality you have a hill on the graph which tops at around 4600 rpm's) then between 5k and 6k rpm's you have a difference of 52hp and an increase of 24 ft-lbs of torque. then from between 6k and 7k rpm's you gain 19hp and only lose 4 ft-lbs of torque. i actually change what i said, shift at 6500-7000 rpm's and see what happens to your time slips.
stayin in the throttle past 7000 rpm's is causing premature wear to your engine. its also slowing you down despite what other people like activeaero might say.

but like you said, go to the strip, make one pass while shifting at 6000 rpm's, another at 6500 rpm's and a third while shifting at 7000 rpms and compare them to your old times. but shift points are also determined by the gear.

90teg

I have no idea where you are getting you info from. Shifting at 6k when you still have 2k rpms that is still making power? I don't see how you would think that it would give you better slip times. I remember back when I first going to the track I used to shift before 6500rpms and ran 16.2. After talking to some people at the track they told me I was shifting too soon. After the correction I ran 15.8 shifting at 8k. So where are you getting your info from? I don't know ANYONE shifting at 6k unless they are a noob.

Used2beAb16

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LsVtec92Hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Thats great for you, but youre flirting with disaster every time you rev that high. Id rather only take it to 8k and have it last thousands of miles longer.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Flirting with disaster? Maybe, but i would only be worried about bearings at that rpms. As far as lasting longer, so what? All it will need is rings? Those arent very expensive.

As for shifting at 6,500 with an ls/vtec 2,000 rpms before peak power is absurd IMO CallMeJesus can despute this with his theory but that means shants car must be an exception to the rule.

I am willing to bet that my car would run atleat .5 second slower shifting at 6,500 as apposed to 8,500. (peakpower made here)

Also never did i post that I run the motor to 9,000 rpms "daily" but i have done it with no problems.

Combustion Contraption

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Used2beAb16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Flirting with disaster? Maybe, but i would only be worried about bearings at that rpms. As far as lasting longer, so what? All it will need is rings? Those arent very expensive. </TD></TR></TABLE>

You would be lucky if all you needed was new rings. One of the things r/s ratio tells us is how much of a sideload the cylinder walls are experiencing. I would be more weary of throwing a rod than i would needing new rings. But i dont want to turn this into an anti ls/vtec thing, because look at my username, that would be rididulous.

As far as callmejesus early shifting crusade, id love to hear how his theories hold up against guys like papadakis, aguilar, bisi, you know, some of the top dogs in import racing.

Used2beAb16

Yes i agree that a "disaster" would be more than needing new rings. BUT thats exactly why i wouldnt run a stock bottem end. I wouldnt turn a stock ls bottem end over 7,000 rpms. (or one with any honda parts ie stock rods and diff honda pistons)
Not saying that forged internals and upgrade bolts, girdles, blah blah will make it totally bullet proof. But if your going to build a motor you might as well take it to its limits.
I would mainly be concerned with a spun bearing at high rpms.

Combustion Contraption

shot peened LS rods with ARP rod bolts here. 8k several times with no problems yet. *crossing fingers*

Veris

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CallMeJesus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">huh? would drop him to the lowest part of the torque curve? i dont think so. it might drop back to where his torque is in a depression, but he would find himself in a stronger hp curve, shortly entering its most strongest point of where both torque and hp make huge gains over the period of 400 rpm's.

3000 rpm's: 72 hp / 129 ft-lbs.
4000 rpm's: 93 hp / 122 ft-lbs.
5000 rpm's: 116 hp / 122 ft-lbs.
6000 rpm's: 168 hp / 146 ft-lbs.
7000 rpm's: 187 hp / 141 ft-lbs.
8000 rpm's: 195 hp / 130 ft-lbs.
* 5500 rpm's: 131 hp / 125 ft-lbs.

look at the hp gain inbetween 3k and 4k rpm's, it is a 19hp difference. between 4k and 5k there is a 23hp difference, while torque stays the same. (while in actuality you have a hill on the graph which tops at around 4600 rpm's) then between 5k and 6k rpm's you have a difference of 52hp and an increase of 24 ft-lbs of torque. then from between 6k and 7k rpm's you gain 19hp and only lose 4 ft-lbs of torque. i actually change what i said, shift at 6500-7000 rpm's and see what happens to your time slips.
stayin in the throttle past 7000 rpm's is causing premature wear to your engine. its also slowing you down despite what other people like activeaero might say.

but like you said, go to the strip, make one pass while shifting at 6000 rpm's, another at 6500 rpm's and a third while shifting at 7000 rpms and compare them to your old times. but shift points are also determined by the gear. </TD></TR></TABLE>

On they dyno graph, the area of the HP curve with the greatest area is where acceleration is maximized. You want your shift points keep you in this area.

Calculate the power/acceleration with the gearing.

A = M/F and F = T x G / R
A = acceleration
M = mass of car
F = force
T = torque of engine
G = total gear ratio (gear ratio x axle ratio)
R = radius of tire

A = M / (T x G / R )

It'll make more sense why you would want to hold the lower gears longer if you do so.


Modified by Veris at 2:32 PM 8/15/2004

Used2beAb16

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LsVtec92Hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">shot peened LS rods with ARP rod bolts here. 8k several times with no problems yet. *crossing fingers* </TD></TR></TABLE>

I think you should be ok with 8k no problems. Shouldnt have any longevity issues shifting at 8k, even 8,500 and most of the problems with the stock rods are the rod bolts. IF your running the arp rod bolts you shouldnt have any stretch.

I am running eagle rods with the arp bolts and i havent had problems at 8, 8.5, or 9+k. I only run up to 9k in 1st and 2nd gear. So the motor doest spend alot of time that high in the rpms. You would be surprised how much that extra rpms in 1st gear can carry over throughout the whole run.

Other things you need to look at when determining a shift point is how much does the power fall off after peak hp. A good ported head and good cams will carry the power over and you may only lose 5hp over the next 1,000 rpms over peak.

Veris

I agree. 8K on stock rods with ARPs are fine. I just wouldn't go higher (or that high with a 95mm crank).

CallMeJesus

where am i getting my info? which info would that be? i also said he probably would get the quickest slips shifting at/around 7000 rpm's, i actually corrected myself.

i dont think some of you are understanding the concept of racing. an engine/vehicle is either gaining or losing speed. if you stay in the throttle after youve hit peak hp, you are losing time because your engine is losing power.

veris, youre confusing. if he stayed between 4k-7k rpm's he would be in his greatest area of hp because over those 3k rpm's he makes 96hp and a total peak torque gain of 24 ft-lbs. during 5k-8k rpm's he only makes 79hp with the same ft-lbs net gain. after 7k rpm's the power band starts to slow down. not multiplying as quickly as it did between 4k-7k rpm's.
but if this were a drag car, he would really only want to be in the powerband for about 2500 rpm's, and bang the gears so he could take advantage of the strongest "part' of his powerband.

Combustion Contraption

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CallMeJesus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
i dont think some of you are understanding the concept of racing. an engine/vehicle is either gaining or losing speed. if you stay in the throttle after youve hit peak hp, you are losing time because your engine is losing power.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

except that my hp doesnt peak at 7k so why should i shift there?

ActiveAero

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CallMeJesus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">huh? would drop him to the lowest part of the torque curve? i dont think so. it might drop back to where his torque is in a depression, but he would find himself in a stronger hp curve, shortly entering its most strongest point of where both torque and hp make huge gains over the period of 400 rpm's.

3000 rpm's: 72 hp / 129 ft-lbs.
4000 rpm's: 93 hp / 122 ft-lbs.
5000 rpm's: 116 hp / 122 ft-lbs.
6000 rpm's: 168 hp / 146 ft-lbs.
7000 rpm's: 187 hp / 141 ft-lbs.
8000 rpm's: 195 hp / 130 ft-lbs.
* 5500 rpm's: 131 hp / 125 ft-lbs.

look at the hp gain inbetween 3k and 4k rpm's, it is a 19hp difference. between 4k and 5k there is a 23hp difference, while torque stays the same. (while in actuality you have a hill on the graph which tops at around 4600 rpm's) then between 5k and 6k rpm's you have a difference of 52hp and an increase of 24 ft-lbs of torque. then from between 6k and 7k rpm's you gain 19hp and only lose 4 ft-lbs of torque. i actually change what i said, shift at 6500-7000 rpm's and see what happens to your time slips.
stayin in the throttle past 7000 rpm's is causing premature wear to your engine. its also slowing you down despite what other people like activeaero might say.

but like you said, go to the strip, make one pass while shifting at 6000 rpm's, another at 6500 rpm's and a third while shifting at 7000 rpms and compare them to your old times. but shift points are also determined by the gear. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Please explain to us then how every diesel truck in the world can't stomp us into the ground? Answer: We use our high rpm torque to take advantage of GEARING to create speed.

Torque does nothing in a drag race if you can use it to create foward motion. By shifting at lower rpms when you have a nice high rpm torque plateau on tap you are completely giving up the gearing advantage.

What if our cars make peak torque at 1,500rpms? Sure the car would accelerate the hardest there, but with stock gearing you would only be converting it to 3-4mph (just estimating) of foward speed. To gain speed you would have to shift again for a few more mph, then again, and again, and again, etc. "So what?" you say? Just gear the car so it can take advantage of the torque curve and pull more speed from the 1,500rpm torque peak, no big deal right? Wrong. To gear a torque peak of 1,500rpms to produce any significant foward speed that would actually allow to cover the 1/4mi in less than a month would cause the need for an extremely long gear ratio.

And that's the whole issue. By using an extremely long gear ratio you REDUCE your effective torque multiplication for the sake of gaining speed.

150lb/ft @1,500&lt;150lb/ft @7,000rpm when it comes to taking advantage of gearing.

CallMeJesus

do you know deisel haulers have been clocked at over 150mph? and if a deisel were geared better, your ls/vtec wouldnt stand a chance. lets not talk about gearing, because im sure you wouldnt know where to begin.

im done with this conversation. prove me wrong by going to the track and puttin what i say to the test.

Suprdave

Maybe you should...because I see alot of bold statements and nothing to back it up.

You shift a honda, where the rpm drop will still keep you in VTEC. You also want to be carried thru the traps in 4th gear.

Your arguments might make sense in a V8 with a Powerglide and a Converter, but not a Honda.

Rollo Lawson

callmejesus, more like callmebozo. shift at 6K? you don't know what you are talking about. i don't even have time to waste on your theories. you are just LOST.

H2nr

callmejesus sounds like a V8 guy to me. Jesus do you race a Honda? If not then shut the **** up until you do. Experience is the key to not looking like a fool.