more potential: h22 or b18c5
09-22-2003, 03:53 PM
#2
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: BMWLAND, DE, GERMANY
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: more potential: h22 or b18c5 (ek_jeremy)
well the h22 is bigger i'd imagine it would be easier to make power out of a big engine and the c5 is just pointless too much money b18c and throw the extra money in it. Personally i have the 22 cause its different and promotes a challenge to get it in to my ek
09-22-2003, 04:53 PM
#3
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Tx, USA
Posts: 832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: more potential: h22 or b18c5 (96hatch22)
When you talk about having a B series or H series. Your talking about two TOTALLY different worlds. I think I would try and ride in some cars that are powered by the two engines, and make your decision that way. If I could do it again (I've had a h22 in my civic for about a year now) I think I would probably do a B series just to see what/if I was missing anything.
Mark
Mark
09-22-2003, 05:00 PM
#4
B*a*n*n*e*d
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: retired 2/13/10
Posts: 7,177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: more potential: h22 or b18c5 (SilverEk3dr)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SilverEk3dr »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When you talk about having a B series or H series. Your talking about two TOTALLY different worlds. I think I would try and ride in some cars that are powered by the two engines, and make your decision that way. If I could do it again (I've had a h22 in my civic for about a year now) I think I would probably do a B series just to see what/if I was missing anything.
Mark</TD></TR></TABLE>
good advice the only problem is u will feel the torque of the H22 which is really deceiving. where a C5 will actually b as fast if not faster. so dont just take rides and decide. C5 all the way. for future mods u wont have to resleeve it to run forged pistons, bolts in and alot less headaches period.
my example is this, u take a car like mine, last yr 13 flat on street tires and jump into it for a pass. then u jump into my friends V8 car. which is faster???? 99/100 ppl would say the V8 which in fact is false. torque is often mistaken for speed. big difference.
Mark</TD></TR></TABLE>
good advice the only problem is u will feel the torque of the H22 which is really deceiving. where a C5 will actually b as fast if not faster. so dont just take rides and decide. C5 all the way. for future mods u wont have to resleeve it to run forged pistons, bolts in and alot less headaches period.
my example is this, u take a car like mine, last yr 13 flat on street tires and jump into it for a pass. then u jump into my friends V8 car. which is faster???? 99/100 ppl would say the V8 which in fact is false. torque is often mistaken for speed. big difference.
09-22-2003, 05:03 PM
#5
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Long Island, N.y, usa
Posts: 2,353
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
search!!!this has been covered numerous times and u will find shitloads of information on it that can help u. me personally, i would pick a b18c5 its a nice engine to work with. the h22's tranny aint all that, it has poor traction, poor fuel delivery system and weight transfer correct me if im wrong.
09-22-2003, 05:44 PM
#6
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Tx, USA
Posts: 832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (drchulo)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">good advice the only problem is u will feel the torque of the H22 which is really deceiving. where a C5 will actually b as fast if not faster. so dont just take rides and decide. C5 all the way. for future mods u wont have to resleeve it to run forged pistons, bolts in and alot less headaches period.
my example is this, u take a car like mine, last yr 13 flat on street tires and jump into it for a pass. then u jump into my friends V8 car. which is faster???? 99/100 ppl would say the V8 which in fact is false. torque is often mistaken for speed. big difference</TD></TR></TABLE>
Wow. Put into even greater perspective.
I agree with you totally, and the torque is deceiving. The thing that I think has the greatest affect on racing is the B series amazing hp curve. With the right cams you can take a B series to 10K, and make power the whole way. This very high usuable Hp curve is in my oppinion what make the B series better for racing. Dont ask my why the H22's wont make it that high, but even with skunk2 stage 2 (not that big, but farely agressive) it seems that the power will still drop off around 7500-8000 rpm. Now maybe I havent seen enough built H22's, so please god someone prove me wrong
Mark
my example is this, u take a car like mine, last yr 13 flat on street tires and jump into it for a pass. then u jump into my friends V8 car. which is faster???? 99/100 ppl would say the V8 which in fact is false. torque is often mistaken for speed. big difference</TD></TR></TABLE>
Wow. Put into even greater perspective.
I agree with you totally, and the torque is deceiving. The thing that I think has the greatest affect on racing is the B series amazing hp curve. With the right cams you can take a B series to 10K, and make power the whole way. This very high usuable Hp curve is in my oppinion what make the B series better for racing. Dont ask my why the H22's wont make it that high, but even with skunk2 stage 2 (not that big, but farely agressive) it seems that the power will still drop off around 7500-8000 rpm. Now maybe I havent seen enough built H22's, so please god someone prove me wrong
Mark
Trending Topics
09-22-2003, 06:48 PM
#8
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada, Canada
Posts: 686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (infinatenexus)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by infinatenexus »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">IMHO H-22,, no replacement for displacement</TD></TR></TABLE>
Rpm replaces displacement, B series is my choice
Rpm replaces displacement, B series is my choice
09-22-2003, 07:27 PM
#10
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Las Vegas, NV, US of A
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (GOLDBERG)
A very tough decision in my opinion. I, as a matter of fact, am facing the very same decision. The c5 I think will cost a lil more. The h22 has a **** load of torque. But which is better? I have riden in an h22eg and all I could say was "wow". I mean, it dynos stock at approx. 180/153. What other motor can do that??? Stock..... But, the topic will always be debated.
09-23-2003, 12:58 PM
#12
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Everett, WA, USA
Posts: 564
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (infinatenexus)
the numbers are close stock on both motors.. the h22a/h22 is .4 liters greater and they both createsaround the same horsepower, the h22--some more torque. i agree with the B-series guys.
09-23-2003, 01:08 PM
#13
it all depends what your going for do you want to go fast going straight or do you want to be able to handle properly around say...the track. For handling and a good balance IMO i would go for a B series. Anyone can go fast in a straight line. Not putting down the H's but they r just very heavy. Granted those extra liters are great tho. B-series all the way!
09-23-2003, 01:15 PM
#15
Trial User
Re: (JDM knowledge)
tq may be decieveing, but hp isnt
if a h22 is makign 200whp and a b18cx is making 200 whp
the h22 will have way more tq and more power.
remember folks its not the peak numbers, its the area under the curve
btw, im selling my b setup for an h22
im have a lil slanted view
if a h22 is makign 200whp and a b18cx is making 200 whp
the h22 will have way more tq and more power.
remember folks its not the peak numbers, its the area under the curve
btw, im selling my b setup for an h22
im have a lil slanted view
09-23-2003, 01:39 PM
#16
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: NOR CAL
Posts: 12,464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (Bob-DC2)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bob-DC2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">btw, im selling my b setup for an h22
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Me too. The B series has been fun....time for the Honda Big Block.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Me too. The B series has been fun....time for the Honda Big Block.
09-23-2003, 02:23 PM
#17
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Torrance, CA, USA
Posts: 438
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Depends on what your ultimate power/speed goals are.
Looking for something in the vicinity of 200 whp (Dynojet)? Then a B-series is cheap, easy and light.
If you're looking for more hp, then start weighing the H22 option. The H22 head flows better (stock and ported), doesn't have a much longer stroke than a B18 (or B20) and has a substantially bigger bore.
Your biggest problem with the H22 is parts availability. The 2nd biggest seems to be with the tranny if you drag race. However, I'm seeing prices for H22's start to drop below that of B18Cs in SoCal, so that might offset some of the difficulty in finding/making parts for the H22.
Good luck.
C_A_T
Looking for something in the vicinity of 200 whp (Dynojet)? Then a B-series is cheap, easy and light.
If you're looking for more hp, then start weighing the H22 option. The H22 head flows better (stock and ported), doesn't have a much longer stroke than a B18 (or B20) and has a substantially bigger bore.
Your biggest problem with the H22 is parts availability. The 2nd biggest seems to be with the tranny if you drag race. However, I'm seeing prices for H22's start to drop below that of B18Cs in SoCal, so that might offset some of the difficulty in finding/making parts for the H22.
Good luck.
C_A_T
09-23-2003, 02:55 PM
#18
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: NOR CAL
Posts: 12,464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (C_A_T)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by C_A_T »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> The 2nd biggest seems to be with the tranny if you drag race.
C_A_T</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm looking to fabricate a kit that will mount any B series tranny to the H22.
09-23-2003, 02:59 PM
#19
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Long Island, N.y, usa
Posts: 2,353
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (C_A_T)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by C_A_T »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Depends on what your ultimate power/speed goals are.
Looking for something in the vicinity of 200 whp (Dynojet)? Then a B-series is cheap, easy and light.
If you're looking for more hp, then start weighing the H22 option. The H22 head flows better (stock and ported), doesn't have a much longer stroke than a B18 (or B20) and has a substantially bigger bore.
Your biggest problem with the H22 is parts availability. The 2nd biggest seems to be with the tranny if you drag race. However, I'm seeing prices for H22's start to drop below that of B18Cs in SoCal, so that might offset some of the difficulty in finding/making parts for the H22.
Good luck.
C_A_T</TD></TR></TABLE> i thought the B18C5 head flowed better?? but i dont think the amount of hp will determine if ur really fast. there was a thread like this in the eg+ forum and Tom listed a whole bunch of information and so did a lot of other people. when it comes to allmotor i think the B18C5 will be faster and have more potential.
Looking for something in the vicinity of 200 whp (Dynojet)? Then a B-series is cheap, easy and light.
If you're looking for more hp, then start weighing the H22 option. The H22 head flows better (stock and ported), doesn't have a much longer stroke than a B18 (or B20) and has a substantially bigger bore.
Your biggest problem with the H22 is parts availability. The 2nd biggest seems to be with the tranny if you drag race. However, I'm seeing prices for H22's start to drop below that of B18Cs in SoCal, so that might offset some of the difficulty in finding/making parts for the H22.
Good luck.
C_A_T</TD></TR></TABLE> i thought the B18C5 head flowed better?? but i dont think the amount of hp will determine if ur really fast. there was a thread like this in the eg+ forum and Tom listed a whole bunch of information and so did a lot of other people. when it comes to allmotor i think the B18C5 will be faster and have more potential.
09-23-2003, 03:37 PM
#20
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Tx, USA
Posts: 832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (drchulo)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Me too. The B series has been fun....time for the Honda Big Block.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think you guys are gonna be disapointed
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For handling and a good balance IMO i would go for a B series. Anyone can go fast in a straight line. Not putting down the H's but they r just very heavy. Granted those extra liters are great tho.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think thats bullshit. With the proper suspension set up I think you wouldnt even notice it(I dont). I have heard from people that track H-powered civics, and all they say is how good it ran around the track. B-series+turbo = H22 weight.
I think you guys are gonna be disapointed
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For handling and a good balance IMO i would go for a B series. Anyone can go fast in a straight line. Not putting down the H's but they r just very heavy. Granted those extra liters are great tho.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think thats bullshit. With the proper suspension set up I think you wouldnt even notice it(I dont). I have heard from people that track H-powered civics, and all they say is how good it ran around the track. B-series+turbo = H22 weight.
09-23-2003, 04:56 PM
#21
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Torrance, CA, USA
Posts: 438
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (drchulo)
No way, check Alaniz' website for flow numbers.
Here's something to consider about the H-series (ignoring tranny issues):
It was the model that the F20C design was referenced too. In fact, the F20C bore/stroke specs match exactly the destroked H22's that used to be used in touring car racing (and make over 300 hp at 8500 rpm). The head is pretty good with lots of potential. Much bigger valves than you can ever get into a B-series. Much better bore/stroke ratio too, which means for a given displacement level, your piston speeds/accelerations are lower.
Don't get me wrong, B-series make up 90% of my Honda business and its the most developed, most supported Honda engine out there. But if I was really serious about drag race power and had to choose between B or H (and didn't have to deal with the H-tranny), I'd build myself a sleeved 2.4 liter H motor and have at it. Vs. the same displacement B-motor it would make more power and last longer. I think the mistake that many H-series draggers have made to date is they go _too_ big on the engine (and are still using the H-tranny). One of the biggest problems facing B-series guys right now is getting enough head flow, followed by valve clearance issues with big cams. With the H-motor you not only get a better head, but for a given lift you can flow more air with the bigger valves.
C_A_T
Here's something to consider about the H-series (ignoring tranny issues):
It was the model that the F20C design was referenced too. In fact, the F20C bore/stroke specs match exactly the destroked H22's that used to be used in touring car racing (and make over 300 hp at 8500 rpm). The head is pretty good with lots of potential. Much bigger valves than you can ever get into a B-series. Much better bore/stroke ratio too, which means for a given displacement level, your piston speeds/accelerations are lower.
Don't get me wrong, B-series make up 90% of my Honda business and its the most developed, most supported Honda engine out there. But if I was really serious about drag race power and had to choose between B or H (and didn't have to deal with the H-tranny), I'd build myself a sleeved 2.4 liter H motor and have at it. Vs. the same displacement B-motor it would make more power and last longer. I think the mistake that many H-series draggers have made to date is they go _too_ big on the engine (and are still using the H-tranny). One of the biggest problems facing B-series guys right now is getting enough head flow, followed by valve clearance issues with big cams. With the H-motor you not only get a better head, but for a given lift you can flow more air with the bigger valves.
C_A_T
09-23-2003, 05:02 PM
#22
Honda-Tech Member
Re: (skunked)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by skunked »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm looking to fabricate a kit that will mount any B series tranny to the H22.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I had thought about doing this. This way, you only need one new mount (unless engine placement is not good with a typical B-series mount kit for a 1988-1991). And you don't have to worry about the hassles of the shift cables or hydraulic issues (on a 1988-1991).
I had thought about doing this. This way, you only need one new mount (unless engine placement is not good with a typical B-series mount kit for a 1988-1991). And you don't have to worry about the hassles of the shift cables or hydraulic issues (on a 1988-1991).
09-23-2003, 05:05 PM
#23
Honda-Tech Member
Re: more potential: h22 or b18c5 (96hatch22)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96hatch22 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the c5 is just pointless too much money b18c and throw the extra money in it</TD></TR></TABLE>
The C5 is not a pointless motor to use these days. In case you haven't priced engines lately, GSR motors are VERY expensive motors in their own right. And while GSR motors are getting pricier and pricier (because of people who think like you), ITR motors are getting cheaper and cheaper (again, thanks to people who think like you!). The price difference between the two motors in some cases is only a few hundred dollars! And with this small of a difference, it is impossible to make a GSR better than an ITR.
The C5 is not a pointless motor to use these days. In case you haven't priced engines lately, GSR motors are VERY expensive motors in their own right. And while GSR motors are getting pricier and pricier (because of people who think like you), ITR motors are getting cheaper and cheaper (again, thanks to people who think like you!). The price difference between the two motors in some cases is only a few hundred dollars! And with this small of a difference, it is impossible to make a GSR better than an ITR.
09-23-2003, 05:11 PM
#24
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Tx, USA
Posts: 832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: more potential: h22 or b18c5 (StorminMatt)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm looking to fabricate a kit that will mount any B series tranny to the H22.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Damn...no ****. I'll buy one
Where do I sign?
Make em for H22 ek's
Damn...no ****. I'll buy one
Where do I sign?
Make em for H22 ek's
09-23-2003, 05:15 PM
#25
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Stockton, CA, 95210
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (infinatenexus)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by infinatenexus »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My brothers hatch runs mid-low 13's off a stock H22A1 with bolt ons</TD></TR></TABLE>
i ran low-mid 13s on a stock B18C-R with approx. 175whp
hopefully i can dip in the 12s now
i ran low-mid 13s on a stock B18C-R with approx. 175whp
hopefully i can dip in the 12s now