Suspension Bushings for Honda/Acura racers....

[RR98ITR]

I recently had an experience with the rear suspension bushings of a typical Honda/Acura independent rear suspension. It was not a good experience.

I strongly urge those of you wanting to replace your bushings with something fresher or stiffer to consider doing this as the bare minimum:

***Spend the money and use the Mugen Bushing for the main trailing arm bushing - the big one. Anything else is BAD, where bad means more than one thing (installation and adjustment difficulties, dynamic performance deficits, structural overloading).***

When I looked over the Realtime cars I saw stock style bushings installed in that position - either stock or Mugen. The DC cars had some kind of Spherical bearing. In any case the bushing installation must allow lateral plunge, and rotation about an axis roughly parallel to the centerline of the car, thru the range of motion (there is lateral displacement of the arm, and there IS bump steer, and there's very little you can do about it - therefore if you don't have allowance for plunge and said non-axial rotation, you will have binding forces). The Poly type bushing setups I've seen don't adequately account for this - and you can have problems, in some cases big problems.

You can leave the bushings in the toe links alone - they are soft but lightly loaded. You can probably get by with the cheap stuff on the inner lateral pivots. You really ought to use spherical ends on the upper camber link.

But, seriously, USE MUGEN BUSHINGS ON THE MAIN TRAILING ARM BUSHING!

Scott, who is glad he did...

EDIT - Here's a link to a related thread for more reading about the rear of the DC2: http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=606414


Modified by RR98ITR at 9:56 AM 8/28/2005

[SPiFF]

I am running Enegry Suspension TA bushings, as well as rear LCA bushings. The TA bushing does make a good bit of difference in the feel of the rear end. The first thing I noticed about my GSR while torquing the rear wheels was how much play there was in the stock rear TA bushing. It was crazy. The ITR is a bit better, but still allows for a bunch of play.

[Willard]

[Sarcasm]But Scott... polyurethane is the only way to go for replacements.... don't you know this?[/Sarcasm]

[krshultz]

Originally Posted by RR98ITR

In any case the bushing installation must allow lateral plunge, and rotation about an axis roughly parallel to the centerline of the car, thru the range of motion (there is lateral displacement of the arm, and there IS bump steer, and there's very little you can do about it - therefore if you don't have allowance for plunge and said non-axial rotation, you will have binding forces). The Poly type bushing setups I've seen don't adequately account for this - and you can have problems, in some cases big problems.

Very interesting.

For years now I've been chasing a "why is this car so unpredictable" problem for a while. Giles has always suspected that something's binding. I have the Energy rear trailing arm bushings where you're suggesting Mugen. Perhaps this is the culprit?

[solo-x]

mugen peices ordered on monday. i've already had my run-in with ure-pain bushings and don't feel like a repeat performance. spherical bearings are the only non-rubber way to go, and completely not legal for my class.

nate

[SloCivicHMM]

why aren't ES TA bushing good??

[Todd Reid]

Originally Posted by SlowCivicHmm

why aren't ES TA bushing good??

sounds like the above guys are saying that they bind or don't allow the range of motion that the Honda engineers designed into the rear suspension.


hmmmm, this is what P1 (Jack) was talking about some months ago. he said "don't use Energy or Prothane. use stock Honda bushings".

glad so far I have been lazy and done nothing to the bushings. sometime in the future i will replace with new stock honda, i guess.

thanx for the info, Scott!

[SloCivicHMM]

Hmmm I've seen alot of guys running this for a good period of time....

even the "solid" prothane ones........good to know....I need to replace mine..they are shot!!

[Backmarker]

Could you elaborate on this topic a bit more - what exactly did you experience in the handling of the car you were in. I currently use ES, but was actually concerned that they allow to much play - particularly left to right. Curious as to whether this is true all the time with the bushings, or once the lubrication runs out and they no longer rotate freely about the center shaft.

PS - Thanks for articulating the technical side of what you are concerned about. Much more informative than the "use this", "don't use this" posts.

[Vitt1]

Originally Posted by RR98ITR

The Poly type bushing setups I've seen don't adequately account for this - and you can have problems, in some cases big problems.
Modified by RR98ITR at 11:30 AM 5/2/2003

Yes, could elaborate a little more? What types of "big problems" have you seen? Thanks.

[Vracer111]

I can't find the Mugen main trailing arm bushing for G2 integras...is there a cross reference from another Honda/Acura that could be used? Also its been mentioned in the past that the Prothane rear trailing arm bushing design is supposedly better than the Energy suspension bushings, so maybe the Prothane design will work well enough?

[rex_boy]

I have the Mugen TA and EA rest sitting on my shelf in my garage, I just been delaying since a heard that its a major pain in the ass.

How long did it take you?

[stevel]

Anyone know where to get them for EK's?

TIA

s

[SJR]

I'm not all that sure that you *really* want Scott to elaborate on the problems, especially if he is in one of them moods where I only understand every third word and every 5th concept in his post...
then again, I'm just a dumb-ass.

[Mike P.]

Replaced mine with OEMs and am completely happy. My 107,000 mile Civic's TA bushings were in perfect shape, but I replaced them anyways. FWIW, the same part number is listed for all 88-'00 Civics. The job is cake if you have the right tools (namely a press, and the die from honda and the "cup" that the TA can rest on.

[tonyxcom]

If you look at the car from the back, and then draw a circle around the entire car.

The trailing arms will somewhat follow a similar arc when going through its travel range. The big solid poly bushing restricts this movement, hence the binding.

[SloCivicHMM]

hmmm so OEM is the way to go???

is this just for racing conditions or as maintance reasons??

[Vitt1]

Last time I checked with a dealer (while ago), I had to buy the whole TA if I wanted new bushings, because they didn't sell bushings alone. So I guess Mugen is the way to go.

[B18CXr]

hmmm so OEM is the way to go???

I've been saying this for years now.....


Thanks for taking the time Scott to explain, I just didn't have the patience in the "trust me" post a few months ago.

[ragejed]

tt because I have the ES trailing arm bushings in now, and after reading this, I might order the mugen ones.... advice? its a daily driver now, is it worth replacing?

[Def]

Anyone have a diagram of a common Honda rear suspension, I'm having a hard time visualizing this binding and don't exactly have a H car to go outside and crawl under. It makes sense though give that the poly is probably restricting movement where Honda engineers were expecting deformation.

At least you guys don't have the rear end of the car actually steer itself left or right when your TA bushings deform(and it takes a monoball bearing to eliminate this, then the bearing promptly eliminates your TA mounting tabs in the subframe after daily driving. )

[.RJ]

I wish i had a diagram... but next time you've got the rear of a 2g/3g integra or eG hatch or whatnot on jackstands, jack up the hub and watch the suspension travel through its motion. You'll realize very quickly which bushings are bad to replace with poly.

[Bnjmn]

Alright...this takes care of the rear bushings...is poly alright for the front?

Thanks
Ben

[ragejed]

I hope soo.. I have the Complete es kit in... lol

[tech2drew]

Spherical barings are the way to go if really want the car to be rock solid and rotate. It is very expensive to fabricate, but well worth it in the end. My whole car has spherical barings on the suspension. If anyone wants parts I can sell some of my spares from my World Challenge touring car. It is the old DC Sports car.