randomhero199

I've been looking to purchase/build a track car for months. Had my heart set on e36 or e46 BMW M3 but the running costs, as well as consumables are pretty steep. I've been a honda guy for 14 years, and keep coming back to this being a great track car. I'm a big Tudor/Imsa Rolex Grand Am (whatever it is this month) fan and have seen Compass360 and HART, as well as others have some great success over these past years with the civic.


My question is: What's the best chassis for track car. I've got my eye on a EP3 2003 si already built, but haven't seen many of them on track. I've seen a lot of the EK and older civics, handful of RSX's. IS there one that is preferred as a starting point/chassis? Or are they all fairly similar.

Any characteristics stand out about each chassis?

I've got an 08 si I commute to work in, and am really tossing idea around with slowly converting it over to a HPDE/TT setup this year, but also wouldn't be opposed to buying/building an older car. The RSX seems appealing, as does the EP3 and newer si's, but also the older hatches seem very popular.

What's the consensus .... appreciate the info, and glad I found this forum, seems to be great place for good, solid info.

redlinetuning

The question has been asked time and time again. It really comes down to preference. But as far as popularity goes, it's a matter of preference as well. The older cars are popular mostly because the chassis/shell itself can be had for cheaper.

randomhero199

I apologize, I searched...

Caoboy

Do you want a strictly track vehicle or a weekend warrior?

Do you want to be able to leave your weekend warrior apart in the garage while you are working during the week, or have to finish it up on Sunday in order to get to work on Monday?

There's no one chassis to beat another. I do read here that the RSX and newer civics are less nimble than the EK and older models.

It's really preference.

randomhero199

No need to be streetable, looking for a track only setup

redlinetuning

I wasn't trying to be a jerk. I was just stating some facts; I apologize if I came off as sounding rude.

VTECIntegra9

Everyone is so polite^ lol wtf this is an online forum!?!?

On that note I apologize for not really answering your questions in details (I'm a DC guy and haven't personally played with enough newer Honda track setups)...

To me if you're not competing against others in a certain class for racing then you find the car the speaks to you the most and run with it. Since you're a grand-am fan (as am I)... and like the cars like C360 then that sounds like a fun car to make quick. I am not sure what little troubles they have (like the RSX for example has some funky front end geometry that must be manipulated and with the rear motion ratio makes for some very rear-stiff cars just to get them to turn and keep the rubber flat).

Good luck let us know what you decide on.

Xian

Curious... are you looking at the STL EP3 that IPG has for sale? If not, you should be. It's a solid (and fast) package... would make a great track car or race car. They've got some wins in it and it's easily as fast (and usually faster than) the B-powered competition. No, it doesn't have double wishbones, no the suspension isn't as well thought out, no it's not the "historic" go-fast answer to the Honda question but it's a quick/reliable option.

Sidebar: with the rules as they stand right now, the K-engines are the one to go for in STL. So, either something like an EP3/RSX/newer Civic is the easy button. If this was going to be a dual use car, the EP3/RSX would be less ideal as they take some pretty high spring rates to keep the geometry in it's happy place... but for a track only car, go for it.

hufflepuff

If you don't want to do much work, Integra RS models are good bang for the buck.

TORQUE MONSTER

I never really post anything in forums anymore... but when I do, you best listen up!





First and fore most you need to decide exactly what it is you want to do. If you want to just do track days/HPED or real racing, (Wheel to wheel or even Time trials).



The two things are very different. with track days and HPEDs who cares. You arnt racing anyone, and time isnt even recorded. Given that you asked this question, I will assume you dont want to go wheel to wheel racing any time soon. With that said, I will give you the up most honest answer.



It doesn't matter what car you bring out, as someone mentioned earlier its all about preference. I've owned most civics starting from Efs and up. DA, DC, integras. E36 M3s, Subbies, Miatas, AE86s the list goes on. The most fun I've had on the track was in my stock Miata, or close to stock EG si.



My next advice is to take a car that's closest to stock. Don't go buy a fully prepped Race car if you haven't done any track days or have very little real driving experience/expertise (on a race track). I've had a student wreck his Lotus Elise cause the car was just too much for him to handle. Hope this help put you on the right path.

oe

Freemananana

iTrader: (3)

If you are going for stock class you can't beat a Si EF (89-91) hatchback with a D16A6. It performs really well in the class that it's in. At least that's what I've heard. But you can really have fun in anything at a local auto-x track if you are just looking to have fun. But for competition there are some that have better classing than others.

TORQUE MONSTER

You mean one of these?

Yes you are correct. One of the best car for Street tire class. Cheap, reliable and FAST. Not in terms of horse power, but in terms of handling.

randomhero199

Much appreciated Torque! I should have specified, I've been racing for 10 years, road-racing motorcycles (hold 2 wheels equivalent to pro license) and offroad/mx for longer. I've also done some track days, in a bone stock subaru sti, which quickly made me realize I wanted something more simple (KISS is what I typically live by).

I'm very well aware - 99% of the time, it's the "Indian" and not "the arrow" ... meaning it's the driver, not the car. I've seen some of these builds where people take a running car and strip it down to nothing but the shell, and take years getting it back on track - I'm not interested in that.

The reason for asking was to avoid making a mistake purchasing... I'm not aware if any of the years chassis has issues, odd characteristics etc. I had no idea about the rsx - makes sense why you see few of them.

I'm looking to do W2W racing, my job will limit my time for most of the year until late fall... I'm looking into a couple endurance type series, and for now will concentrate on HPDE/TT.

I was talking about the IPG civic (earlier in this thread). It seems to be very well setup/sorted and not a bad price @ all. I've talked to the seller.... just trying to do my homework and cover my bases.

(little 2 wheel **** for the people interested in that type of racing from Miller years back - the whole KISS theory doesn't apply to this Ducati - never again)

randomhero199

Not interested in Auto-x (no offense to the auto-x nuts out there) I've tried once, just didn't enjoy it... I enjoy being on road course.

TORQUE MONSTER

The best track car I owned is probably an e36 M3. Close to stock. Miatas are fun too. I just picked up a 2013 WRX. its quickly becoming my new favorite car.

Like Free said above. For racing, you want to first establish a budget, then pick a class you want to race in. Then from that you pick your car. For me autox fits my budget. From there I could have gone race tires or Street tires. Again budget dictated street tires. From there I picked an 89 Civic Si.

Freemananana

iTrader: (3)

Yup, essentially. I left out the 88 since I've been told the suspension is less than ideal. iirc at least. My car is far from being competitive in the class it would be in, so I plan on tracking it just for the hell of it.

Xian

Yeah, basically Honda didn't do their homework with the geometry on the EP3/RSX. If you lower them (like you can with the earlier Civic/Integra), you get horrible bump steer. The rear has a wacky motion ratio with the spring set way inboard that results in some pretty stout spring rates being needed. All this being said, they *can* handle well and they *are* pretty damn fast but you're not going to take the knowledge learned in the double wishbone camp and copy/paste it onto these cars.

James @ IPG is a smart guy and they've done a really good job developing that car. It won't handle quite as well as the earlier cars (that are typically running a b-swap) but it's got some serious straight line talent. A "perfect" pairing would likely be an earlier car with a K-swap but that's a TON more cash than the IPG car.

mattbatson

as others have said, you can do it two ways...

either race the car you want, and find a class for it

or, find the class you want to race in, and pick a car from the allowable options in the rulebook.

There are a whole bunch of different racing org's out there, and you need to figure out which tracks you will be primarily running at, which org's run there often, which org's have a good amount of competition in class (you don't want to run against 3 guys for the championship), etc.

randomhero199

After geeking out for days reading through threads two more questions arise...

Is there a performance and/or cost benefit when it comes to cars setup w/K series motors, opposed to B series? If I'm reading things correctly, cliffs notes are:
newer civics w/K series make more power, but are also a bit heavier and all of the needed bits the K series requires adds weight & I'm guessing parts/consumables for these are more expensive.

Whereas the B series cars - older civics/integra's make less power, but are lighter weight, and in some ways it's a wash, besides engines/parts being cheaper.

Other question or observation: Seems the EK hatch and the integra are both the most popular car built on here.. Any specific reasoning (guessing they're cheap platform w/good performance?) I've read over some integra builds, seems they've had some good success...... If you were to build one of these, is there a certain motor/trans combo that's preferred? The B18 in the integra proffered over B16 in older civic si? what say you?

F22Master

The EK hatch and Integra are the most popular, in my opinion, because they are the direct relatives of Honda's original "race" cars. The Civic Type-R, and the Integra Type-R. Both are very potent chassis, both make solid power, and both can be made extremely light. The perfect combination. There must be a reason Honda took those two cars and took them to the next level... And I think that inspired at least a few people to make them into their own race cars... JMO. But I personally think that EG hatches have more potential than EK.

Think about this:
~2000lb EG/EK/DC hatch (gutted, seam welded/stiffened if possible)
~200+whp B20Vtec - Mildly built
225/45-15 slicks all around
Stock front sway bar
Big rear sway bar
Stiff suspension (something like 500f/800r)

Thats pretty much a winning recipe right there. Might need a few extra things, but thats the baseline for any of the pre-2000 hondas.

mattbatson

what class and what racing organization are we talking about here?

randomhero199

NASA Honda Challenge - although my regions participation is pretty weak. Not sure in SCCA - maybe STL. The endurance series I'm looking at have much more dumbed down rules and mainly user power:weight to class.

My region is dominated by spec miata's - 40+ entries, I'm looking into that option again also, seems there are ways people are fitting taller drivers in them, which was always my hang up... but people 6'5" are fitting in these now, which opens my eyes. There's a nicely setup SM local for $7k, decisions...

FlewByU352

DC2

VTed

DC2 is the best chassis for a track car.
Simple answer to your question.

Xian

That ^^^ right there.

Sort out the class "for sure" and then the answer to car/chassis will easily follow... if the goal is to make a cross-over car that is legal for both HC and STL, I'd think that should be pretty easy to do (granted I haven't looked at the ever-changing HC rule set in years).

As far as the advantages and disadvantages... yeah, K swaps are more expensive. Some k-parts are more expensive. The flip side is that the K is the "new" Honda engine architecture and will be supported with OE parts long after the B-series. Remember, the newest B18's were sold in the Integra ~13 years ago. The same long term parts concern should be there for other stuff like OE hubs, bearings, transmission parts, etc.

Regarding weight; STL weight is based on displacement so the K20 cars are heavier than the B16/B18 ones but they've also got a **** ton more HP and Tq. Go look at the 2013 Runoff's results with an eye toward where the K-powered cars finished... the weight didn't slow them down and it's unlikely the restrictor will do much for 2014.

The EK wouldn't be at the top of my list of track cars simply due to a lack of decent spherical compliance bearing options. They have a slightly different design than the EG/DC which makes it a more difficult fitment. If Kingpin made compliance bearings for the EK, it would enhance their attractiveness.

You see a bunch of DC's because they had a production run from 94-01. Basically double the EG or EK. Most of the EG's got snapped up during the FnF years and were turned into garbage. There are still some that escaped and are decent street or track cars but they're tough to find in good shape.