B_Swapped93

What's your opinion on Spherical bearings vs hardrace/ES bushings for trailing arms ?. it's not so much about the price however the PCI's are 280$ vs 80$ for the hard-race ones, is there a notable difference enough to warrant 200$ more from lets say the hardrace poly ones to spherical's ?. I understand PW:JDM has their own version of PCI's bearing anything special about it ? or am I paying for jdm points lol looking to get an Anti-gravity battery too so 200$ saved would be nice. was wondering the same with the front lca's is it worth it to put spherical bearings in them or just a hard rubber/poly bushing ?

thx guys.

Car is set up for time attack and doesn't see the streets anymore. if it matters I have a ASR 32mm RSB .120 thickness.

KIWI

There is no comparison between PCI and Hard Race when it comes to Spherical bearings!
I used to be the US Distributor for HardRace but I gave it up - Not because there was any particular problem with the HardRace products... It was just that they were so hard to deal with whenever a problem did arise like failing extended ball joints for example. Getting a modification or improvement done or a slight design change to make the product better was like pulling teeth.
Now we only sell PCI Products and I am proud to endorse them have some of their parts in my "Kiwi Signature Series" line of products.
I'm sure Password JDM feel the same way. They are all PCI and yes ! I guess they are special as they are all of the same high quality.

Kiwi

TypeRfit

iTrader: (6)

I have the hardarce master bushing kit and love it. ^^Like above I had my HR balljoints fail and their customer service was a nightmare. But I would use their bushings again for sure.

B_Swapped93

So in the context of just product for product it's worth going with spherical RTA-b's a note-able difference over the OEM's for sure and a poly ones like ES/HR sells ?. This is just my 2nd year into this last year the car was stock more so, I'm just trying to learn what works/what doesn't before I go buying things. This section has been VERY helpful so far


@KIWI you guys will ship to Canada,Ontario right ?(I'd be ordering threw Teknotik)

TypeRfit

iTrader: (6)

I could tell a solid difference going from oem to the HR, dont personally have any experience with spherical bushings.

VTECIntegra9

sphericals compared to hard rubber in the rear are considered a big upgrade in my mind if you are on sticky tires... and not on the street. Worth the pennies.

It will make the rear of the car extremely "hard" on bumps but if you're cool with it - I believe it's worth it.... (Except when I decided to drive my car to work one day... 30minutes of suck lol)
I am paying one of my best friends for his phtography at my wedding in suspension bushings :-P I already told him: "you're getting the PCI sphericals I don't care if I have to pay more.... you need them"

Xian

Personally, I'd go with either the OE bushings from Honda or the Sphericals... *but* the RTA sphericals would be way down my list of stuff to do. Tons more low hanging fruit. Have you already done the Kingpin compliance bearing?

B_Swapped93

So front lca spherical's would be along that line of "later" too ? may just get some ES ones for the time being my oem ones were replaced last year so I think i'll just keep rocking them. Just looked at them they seem a little different/crude looking

gramkrackers

I would concern myself with the front of the car first personally, as long as you have good condition OEM RTA bushings, I would try and focus on sphericals for the front of the car before the RTA's.

92integraVTECgsr

If this is a 100% dedicated track car which you say it is, I would go spherical no questions asked. I have all the PCI spherical and bronze bushings in my Honda Challenge H1 Integra and it is a huge noticeable difference going from OEM and ES. I won't use anything.

Highly recommend Kiwi and PCI. Great quality, durability and can be rebuilt if needed which I've never had to rebuild them. My RTA bushings have been in the car for 4 years.

92integraVTECgsr

I disagree. Changing the RTA bushing was the biggest most noticeable change. You can feel the back end of the car a lot more and you'll know what it is doing. It is more precise feeling.

Xian

I dunno... I've got to think a certain amount of the improvement "felt" by doing the RTA sphericals is down to driving style, personal preference, and setup. I've never had them on any of my race, track, autox, or street cars and have never really felt the need. The back end has never felt "un-planted"... Well, at least not in a bad way. I found that front end sphericals (radius rod/compliance bearing) that would control toe change under braking were a substantial improvement though.

I'm a big fan of good condition OE style bushings in most locations with some poly (a blend of these two options reduces deflection while also cutting down on binding problems. If I were to start adding sphericals into the setup more intensively, I'd look toward the LCA's as the next step and then the RTA though I can see the argument for doing the RTA first (it's relatively cheap).

coolhandluke

iTrader: (2)

Nailed it IMO.

There is a lot of grey area here on whether the car sees the street, how old/worn the current bushings are, etc. I have been replacing all the bushings in the 97' I just bought in September. This is a street car that sees DE's only, so I went with Kingpin spherical front lower compliance and OEM Honda for the rest. (RTA, rear LCA, rear UCA, front LCA, FSB, RSB, etc.)

B_Swapped93

It doesn't, it's not street able anymore(legally/literally) they're new OEM Honda ones I put in last year, most of the other stuff was replaced with OEM Honda parts when I got the car 1.5 years ago. other ones got replaced when I got a new aftermarket parts ie: rear lca rsb etc.

Xian

If all the bushings are recent, I'd do them like this:

Spherical compliance bearing
Spherical front LCA's
Poly rear LCA bushings, OE rubber shock bushing
Spherical/adjustable rear UCA's
Spherical RTA bearing

My preference for keeping the rear LCA poly is that you end up with LCA rotation due to the swaybar when you go 100% spherical in that location. I know Chris @ Kingpin has a solution on this but it's more hassle than it's worth for anything short of a top end competition car. Hell, most of the stuff above is overkill even for a competition car. The only items above that are requirements, IMO, are the compliance bearing and the adjustable rear UCA. The rest of the stuff is nice to have but the money would be better spent on other stuff first... A good data acquisition system, better safety equipment, better shocks, fresher tires, shock/spring/bar testing, more seat time, etc.

B_Swapped93

Sorry unfamiliar with where the compliance bearing is on the car(integra) ? not used to that term. And by rear UCA that's the rear camber arm right I have buddy club ones and F7 rear spherical lca's.

thx will take into good consideration/re-organize my list.

10cjennings

iTrader: (1)

VTECIntegra9

This... btw: the hardrace versions of these are on backorder as an FYI for those looking for the lower cost alternative

Xian

Yep, others nailed it. It's that big-azz bushing that locates the trailing end of the front LCA. Get with Chris @ Kingpin for the replacement. He is (to my knowledge) the only person making sphericals for that location and produces probably the nicest looking and functioning pieces on the market.

Yes, rear UCA is the "camber arm" that you reference.

Are the F7 LCA's spherical at all 3 locations?

PS
Just because that's my order doesn't mean you need to do it that way. YMMV, my $0.02, IMHO, etc.

10cjennings

iTrader: (1)

Why do you think a solid compliance bushing is especially important?
To reduce front caster change with rubber bushing deflection (the LCA shifting fore/aft)?

chrisb

The ID of the compliance bushing housing is about 1.68". The OD of the compliance bushing bolt sleeve is about .965". A difference of .715". The rubber used for the compliance bushings is extremely soft. The rear of that LCA can deflect an incredible amount. Looking at the design of the compliance bushing you can see how there are gaps at each end of the OD of the bushing allowing the rubber to expand into those gaps and further deflect. Compliance bushings are terrible on a race car. They were just designed to reduce NVH. Replacing the compliance bushing with a bearing eliminates the unwanted dynamic toe/camber/caster change (mostly toe) due to deflection while also virtually eliminating stiction/bind. No more tail wagging under hard braking. Turn in and quick transitions are drastically improved and a host of other improvements are seen.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23842871@N05/12783042965/http://www.flickr.com/photos/23842871@N05/12783042965/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/23842871@N05/, on Flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23842871@N05/12783152433/http://www.flickr.com/photos/23842871@N05/12783152433/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/23842871@N05/, on Flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23842871@N05/12783042755/http://www.flickr.com/photos/23842871@N05/12783042755/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/23842871@N05/, on Flickr

10cjennings

iTrader: (1)

Does running a 0 deflection piece there and rubber/poly in the rest of the front suspension largely transfer what would have been compliance bushing deflection elsewhere (to the LCA or the UCA bushings), or are they more isolated, and have a significant impact on their own?

chrisb

Tires make the biggest difference on a track car of course. Good shocks/springs make the 2nd biggest difference. It is my strongly held opinion that replacing the compliance bushing with a bearing is the next most important upgrade you can make on a DC/EG track car. The difference is night and day. The first time you threshold brake or go through quick transitions like esses the difference is just phenomenal. The car is so much easier and more fun to drive at the limit.

The other front end bushings can't deflect nearly as much as the compliance bushing due to their design. Just the fact that Honda named it a "compliance" bushing tells you all you need to know. Once you press the compliance bushing out and really see how big and soft that it is, there is no question how going to a spherical at that location would have to transform the car's handling.

Xian

Chris already hit all the salient points but...

Going to a bearing design for the compliance bushing (or if you've got an EF/DA, the radius rod bushing), controls fore/aft movement under acceleration (not a super big deal for roadrace/autox) and braking (big deal). Most of that "squirellyness" we feel under hard braking isn't precipitated by anything the rear is doing. It's down to the front end toeing out, causing slight wander, which results in the rear end "wagging". Take away the deflection, takes away the toe change and makes the car easier to drive deep into corners.

You're right that the next piece to deflect is the front LCA inner bushing... but, as Chris noted, it doesn't have nearly as much material and therefore potential for deflection.

aw614

Are the mugen and ITR pieces still too soft for nvh and with the front end toeing out or are they a decent compromise? I dont think I can or should run a spherical as my car is a street car with some autox inbetween. But I have felt the squirellyness under hard braking and really have hated it b/c it has never felt stable to me, but I think it has more to do than just the bushing in my case with the shocks being worn out.

I've been holding off installing my mugen compliance bushing, but I think this weekend they will finally be installed when I change my shocks and front lca.