built h22 potential hp
01-15-2014, 09:48 AM
#1
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Thread Starter
built h22 potential hp
Hey. So I have a h22 turbo and I'd like to know what kind of numbers I can pull safely its gonna be my dd here's my set up
H22a4 block
88mm bore with darton sleeves
Eagle rods
Wesco pistons 8:4:1
Acl bearings
Stock balanced h22 crank
Balance shaft emlineter kit
Block guard
H22a head ploished by me
Stock values
Brain cower springs and retainers
Stock h22a cams
Adjustable cam gears
Obx equal length ram horn manifold
Euro R intake
68mm tb
Aem rail and 850cc injectors
Adjustable fpr
Walbro 255 fuel pump
Turbo gt35r ???
Ecu p28 chipped??
That's my setup and not sure what turbo and ecu to get
E85 or 91 Oct ???
Its going into a ek hatch I want 400whp
H22a4 block
88mm bore with darton sleeves
Eagle rods
Wesco pistons 8:4:1
Acl bearings
Stock balanced h22 crank
Balance shaft emlineter kit
Block guard
H22a head ploished by me
Stock values
Brain cower springs and retainers
Stock h22a cams
Adjustable cam gears
Obx equal length ram horn manifold
Euro R intake
68mm tb
Aem rail and 850cc injectors
Adjustable fpr
Walbro 255 fuel pump
Turbo gt35r ???
Ecu p28 chipped??
That's my setup and not sure what turbo and ecu to get
E85 or 91 Oct ???
Its going into a ek hatch I want 400whp
01-15-2014, 10:01 AM
#2
Re: built h22 potential hp
Chcek out the forced induction forum and see what guys have done in there.
I think you are going to be limited by the OBX manifold idea for starters, there are many better choices out there.
For your tuning and fuel, talk to whoever will be tuning the vehicle, but you definitely need a tuneable ecu, and for what you may be spending I would say get something like Hondata S300, or Neptune etc. Fuel really is based on what you can get in your area easily. For a turbo Honda, if you have pump E85 where you live, I would run it, but maybe have a 91 map and the ability to change maps if needed if you can't get the E85.
I think you are going to be limited by the OBX manifold idea for starters, there are many better choices out there.
For your tuning and fuel, talk to whoever will be tuning the vehicle, but you definitely need a tuneable ecu, and for what you may be spending I would say get something like Hondata S300, or Neptune etc. Fuel really is based on what you can get in your area easily. For a turbo Honda, if you have pump E85 where you live, I would run it, but maybe have a 91 map and the ability to change maps if needed if you can't get the E85.
01-15-2014, 07:01 PM
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Re: built h22 potential hp
I don't see 400 hp outta reach by all means...but i definitely second Snobordboy, just got with a better quality manifold...there's so many guys these days in the fab field no reason to go cheap on turbo manifold.
01-16-2014, 08:12 PM
#6
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Re: built h22 potential hp
Depending on what variation of the gt35 you go with on corn id say 500whp plus I'd look into a Bb 6262 if u haven't already bought the turbo as for your manifold I'd take it to a fab shop and have them take a look at it make sure all is well and maybe get it coated good luck
01-19-2014, 09:47 PM
#7
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Thread Starter
Re: built h22 potential hp
If I have any thing done with my turbo manifold the warranty Will be voided. Also will I need in o2 sensor?? The car is a 97 ek hatch but the wire harness (obd2) didn't have an o2 sensor. The motor that was in there before just ran headers and a down pope with out it. Where would I wire one in
I haven't ordered my turbo yet I want to get the compression of my engine first. And will 2 inch intercooler piping on my hot side be fine and 2.5 on the cold side
I haven't ordered my turbo yet I want to get the compression of my engine first. And will 2 inch intercooler piping on my hot side be fine and 2.5 on the cold side
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01-20-2014, 05:58 AM
#8
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Re: built h22 potential hp
How is the car running without an O2 sensor? I suppose it would run, just horribly bad. My guess is your factory harness is probably butchered to hell and the wiring has been cut. I've never heard of not running an O2 sensor - thats hilarious.
Just go 2.5 all the way around.
That manifold is junk.
You don't need a block guard.
Why get adjustable cam gears on stock cams?
You need to put a lot more thought into your tuning/fuel system, read the FAQ's in this forum. There's a ton of good info you just need to start absorbing it. A "chipped p28" won't get you too far.
Just go 2.5 all the way around.
That manifold is junk.
You don't need a block guard.
Why get adjustable cam gears on stock cams?
You need to put a lot more thought into your tuning/fuel system, read the FAQ's in this forum. There's a ton of good info you just need to start absorbing it. A "chipped p28" won't get you too far.
01-20-2014, 06:11 AM
#9
Honda-Tech Member
Re: built h22 potential hp
he said he has darton sleeves. he never said WHICH darton sleeves. if he got the normal flanged sleeve, yes he needs a block guard. if he got the M.I.D. sleeves, no he does not need a block guard.
apparently you don't know much about cams. a lot of power can be pulled by simply tweaking cam timing. especially when boost is involved.
01-22-2014, 09:08 AM
#10
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Re: built h22 potential hp
if tuned properly, running with no o2 sensor is not impossible. I haven't ran in closed loop (functional o2 sensor) in over 8 years. I'm a tuner though, and I make occasional tweaks to my tune when necessary, but its very rare to ever need to. I don't recommend it to customers if they can't tweak the tune on their own. but if they can, or if they don't mind having the tuner make tweaks on occasion its very possible.
I don't know anyone running a RELIABLE turbo car without an O2 sensor. I agree that its possible, but as cheap as wideband o2's have gotten why wouldn't you run one.
he said he has darton sleeves. he never said WHICH darton sleeves. if he got the normal flanged sleeve, yes he needs a block guard. if he got the M.I.D. sleeves, no he does not need a block guard.
I assumed any necessary additional hardware was installed with the sleeves at the time of the install.
apparently you don't know much about cams. a lot of power can be pulled by simply tweaking cam timing. especially when boost is involved.
Quite the contrary. Most people use adjustable cam gears to degree in an aftermarket cam. Gains are minimal compared to overall ignition timing. Once the cams are degreed there really isnt a need to touch them again. Factory cams are "usually" on center, and therefore little benefit is gained from adjustable cam gears. Most of the cars I've seen with cam gears on stock cams usually end up with them at zero after dyno tuning.
I don't know anyone running a RELIABLE turbo car without an O2 sensor. I agree that its possible, but as cheap as wideband o2's have gotten why wouldn't you run one.
he said he has darton sleeves. he never said WHICH darton sleeves. if he got the normal flanged sleeve, yes he needs a block guard. if he got the M.I.D. sleeves, no he does not need a block guard.
I assumed any necessary additional hardware was installed with the sleeves at the time of the install.
apparently you don't know much about cams. a lot of power can be pulled by simply tweaking cam timing. especially when boost is involved.
Quite the contrary. Most people use adjustable cam gears to degree in an aftermarket cam. Gains are minimal compared to overall ignition timing. Once the cams are degreed there really isnt a need to touch them again. Factory cams are "usually" on center, and therefore little benefit is gained from adjustable cam gears. Most of the cars I've seen with cam gears on stock cams usually end up with them at zero after dyno tuning.
01-22-2014, 05:30 PM
#11
moderator emeritus
Re: built h22 potential hp
i have not ran an stock o2 sensor in 10 years lol. i never liked something in the back ground changing the tune when i specifically tuned it a particular way. when you have all your corrections tuned properly, an o2 sensor is not necessary. You can have a wideband to watch the fueling and i can typically tell by the AFR readings when its time to change the plugs.
block guards are junk IMO. if the engine is sleeved, what is the point to adding some junk piece of aluminum to it?
I also feel the adjustable gears are pointless on stock cams.
guess my power threads are generally a spiraling circle of nothingness.
why such low compression? i mean jesus. probably want to concentrate on running a t3 exhaust housing and something with an A/R that will make up for the drop in effective compression to help turbo spool.
take a look at the Turbonetics T-GA lineup through Go-Autoworks.
http://www.go-autoworks-store.com/gosptubytu.html
I absolutely love my billet 5454.
the manifold is junk.
do your tuner and yourself a favor and run NICE, up-to-date injectors.
ie - Injector Dynamics, Fuel Injector Clinic, Grams. pretty much every other injector is 10 years behind.
block guards are junk IMO. if the engine is sleeved, what is the point to adding some junk piece of aluminum to it?
I also feel the adjustable gears are pointless on stock cams.
guess my power threads are generally a spiraling circle of nothingness.
why such low compression? i mean jesus. probably want to concentrate on running a t3 exhaust housing and something with an A/R that will make up for the drop in effective compression to help turbo spool.
take a look at the Turbonetics T-GA lineup through Go-Autoworks.
http://www.go-autoworks-store.com/gosptubytu.html
I absolutely love my billet 5454.
the manifold is junk.
do your tuner and yourself a favor and run NICE, up-to-date injectors.
ie - Injector Dynamics, Fuel Injector Clinic, Grams. pretty much every other injector is 10 years behind.
01-23-2014, 06:51 AM
#12
Re: built h22 potential hp
I think we have 2 different ideas going on an O2 sensor, and most of us are talking about having a wideband on the car, not a stock sensor.
The only reason that I can come up with for using adjustable cam gears, is if the block or head have been decked a bit, and they are needed to get them back where they need to be.
As Blake said, good injectors are key to a happy tuner and happy car, and for you power level goals, a 1000cc from any of those companies should be great.
And I agree with him on the compression as well. Why not go 9.5 or 10 to 1? It will make for a much faster spooling car, and easier to drive out of boost as well. This would be especially easy if you go with running E85.
The only reason that I can come up with for using adjustable cam gears, is if the block or head have been decked a bit, and they are needed to get them back where they need to be.
As Blake said, good injectors are key to a happy tuner and happy car, and for you power level goals, a 1000cc from any of those companies should be great.
And I agree with him on the compression as well. Why not go 9.5 or 10 to 1? It will make for a much faster spooling car, and easier to drive out of boost as well. This would be especially easy if you go with running E85.
01-23-2014, 10:50 AM
#13
B*a*n*n*e*d
Re: built h22 potential hp
Is e85 better for detonation than 93 octane? I was under the impression that e85 was crap for high compression or high performance engines.
01-23-2014, 11:29 AM
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01-23-2014, 12:16 PM
#15
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Re: built h22 potential hp
e85 has an octane rating of roughly 105 depending the actual mixture (e70 v e85) compared to your standard 93 octane. ethanol in itself burns cleaner and gernally makes more power simply by using it over pump gas.
it takes larger injectors, fuel pump and a separate tune to run it though.
01-23-2014, 01:41 PM
#16
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Re: built h22 potential hp
see comments in blue
i pass through that city often on my way to fargo.
If you don't have many honda guys aroudn you, your best bet is to email/talk to local tuners and talk their advice on parts & goals. If they know what they are doing they won't steer you in the wrong direction.
i pass through that city often on my way to fargo.
If you don't have many honda guys aroudn you, your best bet is to email/talk to local tuners and talk their advice on parts & goals. If they know what they are doing they won't steer you in the wrong direction.
Hey. So I have a h22 turbo and I'd like to know what kind of numbers I can pull safely its gonna be my dd here's my set up
H22a4 block
88mm bore with darton sleeves ....... i'm assuming you are referring to the dry sleeves 200-300 series. Those would be the most economical $220ish for sleeves & $300 to install. Raven works and a few other performance machine shops can install them for you. These sleeves will open up your choice of pistons. If you want the darton M.I.D. sleeves they are pretty overkill for your 400whp goal. They are about $600 & about $600 for install labor. Chances are you will also have to pay $150-220 extra for line honing the mainss too.
Eagle rods
Wiseco pistons 8:4:1.........Get the 9.7-10.1cr pistons. No need to drop compression that low.
Acl bearings
Stock balanced h22 crank ........... Just get it mirco polished, no need to spend money balancing it.
Balance shaft emlineter kit...... cool.... do it before you sleeve your motor if possible.
Block guard ..... skip it... not worth it for your goals. the Darton dry sleeves will easily do 500whp. The darton M.I.D. are +1000whp sleeves.
H22a head ploished by me .... leave it alone. You could end up doing more harm than good. If you want to replace the valve seals go ahead.
Stock valves ...... if the head is in good condition, leave it alone. ..... IF (key word if) it's old krusty, high milage, questionable condition THEN get the head cleaned, soad blasted, decked, and a nice valve job with re-faced valves. This will help to ensure your head is as fresh as your new block.
* If you don't have the newer style LMA , please get them.
Brain cower springs & retainers.......... I would go with stock springs & retainers... 400-500whp is fine on stock valvesprings. If you feel like you need to upgrade I would get some rocketmotorsports valvesprings which work with stock seats & retainers.
Stock h22a cams
Adjustable cam gears .... no need for them brotha, just more stuff that can go wrong. Also even if the block and head is slightly decked (.0003-.0005) your not loosing any noticable performance with not having cam gears zeroed out. I've seen kids screw up their motors playing with cam gears settings when they have no clue on what they are doing. I've also seen adj bolts back out causing havoc.
Obx equal length ram horn manifold..... if you can't seem to pull yourself away from the bling bling of a cheap manifold, google pictures of how they look when they are all krusty and dirty & cracked/welded repair. lol. But for real, get a qaulity brand manifold where the welds are guaranteed. There a few local shops in MN (MAP, FBM) i'm sure they can fab a nice manifold, downpipe, dumptube & help you out with the charge piping. For manifold, dp, tb, it should be less than $1000ish.
Euro R intake .............. They are nice for NA applications, but when your talking about compressed air flow of turbo application, the stock IM works perfectly fine.
If your looking for something to do, then gut out the IAB webbing in the top & middle of the manifold.
68mm tb ... IIRC your stock TB should be 60mm. That is prefectly fine for +500whp. If you do get a 68-70mm TB then you'll have to spendy time/money port matching it to the IM which really is just more wasted effort.
Aem rail and 850cc injectors...... stock fuel rail & fpr please. Plenty guys have made +600whp on stock rails. Save money that you would spend on aem rail & use it TOWARD nicer injectors like ID, FIC, DW, Grams. If all else fails and you run out of money. If you go E85 you'll need 1000cc injectors for 400whp. If you stay on 93octane you'll need 600-650cc injetors at MIN for 400whp.
Adjustable fpr.... Save money that you would spend on AEM FPR & use it TOWARD nicer injectors like ID, FIC, DW, Grams.
However, if you get a larger fuel pump like walbro 400, it can increase your base fuel pressure above 45-50psi, if it does, THEN i would reccomend the AEM FPR to turn it down as the stock FPR diaphram has been known to tear @ +60psi fuel pressure.
Walbro 255 fuel pump.... see comment above. In addition, please re-wire the fuel pump direct to 12v battery source. Old crusty wiring hardly read 10v, and if you want the pump to work like it's designed to, you need to give it 12v power.
Turbo gt35r ???....... 400whp goal? at min you'll need at min 50 trim turbo screaming for it's dear life to make 400whp.
but trust me, get a bigger turbo, you'll easily out grow 400whp. So I'd reccomend a 60trim.
Ecu p28 chipped??....... Covnert to obd1 & run chipped p28 or p72.
IMHO crome is free and it works for 99% of the typical cookie cutter builds out there. Yours inlcuded. Hondata would be very nice but it's $500 used or $600ish new. Many tuners in MN can tune on crome.
That's my setup and not sure what turbo and ecu to get
E85 or 91 Oct ???
For more power go with E85.
The downside is that you will need larger injectors, go through more fuel (city/racing) but highway mpg difference isn't that bad depending in your tuner.
In MN the winters are brutal so even with with E70 blend it can be PITA to start up the car.
Depending on your location, E85 may not be easily accessable. In the twin cities they are everywhere so I don't freak out about it.
Its going into a ek hatch I want 400whp
400-450whp is about the limits of turbo FWD hondas getting any hope of traction with most common tire/wheel combo. That's a good goal to start with.
H22a4 block
88mm bore with darton sleeves ....... i'm assuming you are referring to the dry sleeves 200-300 series. Those would be the most economical $220ish for sleeves & $300 to install. Raven works and a few other performance machine shops can install them for you. These sleeves will open up your choice of pistons. If you want the darton M.I.D. sleeves they are pretty overkill for your 400whp goal. They are about $600 & about $600 for install labor. Chances are you will also have to pay $150-220 extra for line honing the mainss too.
Eagle rods
Wiseco pistons 8:4:1.........Get the 9.7-10.1cr pistons. No need to drop compression that low.
Acl bearings
Stock balanced h22 crank ........... Just get it mirco polished, no need to spend money balancing it.
Balance shaft emlineter kit...... cool.... do it before you sleeve your motor if possible.
Block guard ..... skip it... not worth it for your goals. the Darton dry sleeves will easily do 500whp. The darton M.I.D. are +1000whp sleeves.
H22a head ploished by me .... leave it alone. You could end up doing more harm than good. If you want to replace the valve seals go ahead.
Stock valves ...... if the head is in good condition, leave it alone. ..... IF (key word if) it's old krusty, high milage, questionable condition THEN get the head cleaned, soad blasted, decked, and a nice valve job with re-faced valves. This will help to ensure your head is as fresh as your new block.
* If you don't have the newer style LMA , please get them.
Brain cower springs & retainers.......... I would go with stock springs & retainers... 400-500whp is fine on stock valvesprings. If you feel like you need to upgrade I would get some rocketmotorsports valvesprings which work with stock seats & retainers.
Stock h22a cams
Adjustable cam gears .... no need for them brotha, just more stuff that can go wrong. Also even if the block and head is slightly decked (.0003-.0005) your not loosing any noticable performance with not having cam gears zeroed out. I've seen kids screw up their motors playing with cam gears settings when they have no clue on what they are doing. I've also seen adj bolts back out causing havoc.
Obx equal length ram horn manifold..... if you can't seem to pull yourself away from the bling bling of a cheap manifold, google pictures of how they look when they are all krusty and dirty & cracked/welded repair. lol. But for real, get a qaulity brand manifold where the welds are guaranteed. There a few local shops in MN (MAP, FBM) i'm sure they can fab a nice manifold, downpipe, dumptube & help you out with the charge piping. For manifold, dp, tb, it should be less than $1000ish.
Euro R intake .............. They are nice for NA applications, but when your talking about compressed air flow of turbo application, the stock IM works perfectly fine.
If your looking for something to do, then gut out the IAB webbing in the top & middle of the manifold.
68mm tb ... IIRC your stock TB should be 60mm. That is prefectly fine for +500whp. If you do get a 68-70mm TB then you'll have to spendy time/money port matching it to the IM which really is just more wasted effort.
Aem rail and 850cc injectors...... stock fuel rail & fpr please. Plenty guys have made +600whp on stock rails. Save money that you would spend on aem rail & use it TOWARD nicer injectors like ID, FIC, DW, Grams. If all else fails and you run out of money. If you go E85 you'll need 1000cc injectors for 400whp. If you stay on 93octane you'll need 600-650cc injetors at MIN for 400whp.
Adjustable fpr.... Save money that you would spend on AEM FPR & use it TOWARD nicer injectors like ID, FIC, DW, Grams.
However, if you get a larger fuel pump like walbro 400, it can increase your base fuel pressure above 45-50psi, if it does, THEN i would reccomend the AEM FPR to turn it down as the stock FPR diaphram has been known to tear @ +60psi fuel pressure.
Walbro 255 fuel pump.... see comment above. In addition, please re-wire the fuel pump direct to 12v battery source. Old crusty wiring hardly read 10v, and if you want the pump to work like it's designed to, you need to give it 12v power.
Turbo gt35r ???....... 400whp goal? at min you'll need at min 50 trim turbo screaming for it's dear life to make 400whp.
but trust me, get a bigger turbo, you'll easily out grow 400whp. So I'd reccomend a 60trim.
Ecu p28 chipped??....... Covnert to obd1 & run chipped p28 or p72.
IMHO crome is free and it works for 99% of the typical cookie cutter builds out there. Yours inlcuded. Hondata would be very nice but it's $500 used or $600ish new. Many tuners in MN can tune on crome.
That's my setup and not sure what turbo and ecu to get
E85 or 91 Oct ???
For more power go with E85.
The downside is that you will need larger injectors, go through more fuel (city/racing) but highway mpg difference isn't that bad depending in your tuner.
In MN the winters are brutal so even with with E70 blend it can be PITA to start up the car.
Depending on your location, E85 may not be easily accessable. In the twin cities they are everywhere so I don't freak out about it.
Its going into a ek hatch I want 400whp
400-450whp is about the limits of turbo FWD hondas getting any hope of traction with most common tire/wheel combo. That's a good goal to start with.
01-24-2014, 04:09 AM
#17
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Re: built h22 potential hp
My first built motor was 8.5:1 - jesus what a dog that thing was. I had like a 2000 rpm usuable window. This was also 2002 people.
Good job in this thread guys - for a topic thats been beaten to death more times than I can count.
OP the info is out there. Start digging - thats how we all did it.
Good job in this thread guys - for a topic thats been beaten to death more times than I can count.
OP the info is out there. Start digging - thats how we all did it.
01-30-2014, 07:45 AM
#18
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: built h22 potential hp
Let me feel you guys in a bit. So I bought a built motor that spun a bearing. So with that being said there were 6000 miles on it . I'm 18 working 33 hours a week full time in high school. So this is my first build and I working my *** off for it. The pistons compression isn't my choice idk what sleeves they are (darton) I had a h22a in my ek so I I'm using parts off that (crank)(dizzy) ( intake/ tb) (cams) every thing on my parts list is already bought except for the turbo and ecu. The block has sleeves in it right now. The shop is honing it out. The head I just removed the combustion comes off it and polished it. Match gaskets. The shop is redecking it 3 angle valve job and cleaning them up and asmembing it with BC springs and retainers. So with all that being said 400whp on my final tune and with my motor set up I have room to grow.
01-30-2014, 08:00 AM
#19
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: built h22 potential hp
No PS ac, egr, crank position senor,no window washer ****. no cat no knock sensor, right now I have a p13 ecu but from what I've been reading p28 s300 would work for me. Also the o2 sensor I will be putting one in. I'm still working on the chassis ( wire tuck shaved and painted engine bay, battery in tuck, fuse box under passager dash) I don't wanna throw codes will p28 throw any on this set up. Also with s300 could I get a 91 map and e 85 one. All new seals and hard lines for fuel. Keep in mind I don't have mad money it dish out.
And my turbo manifold was only 250 bucks and is 16g stainless steal. Lifetime warranty from cranks.
And my turbo manifold was only 250 bucks and is 16g stainless steal. Lifetime warranty from cranks.
07-17-2014, 02:33 PM
#20
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: built h22 potential hp
Tune is on the way in 11 days the car is running pretty good on 12psi
I went with a s366 turbo and p28 hondata s300 on e85. Hoping for the 350-400 HP range just to break in the motor
I went with a s366 turbo and p28 hondata s300 on e85. Hoping for the 350-400 HP range just to break in the motor
07-24-2014, 01:13 AM
#21
Honda-Tech Member
Re: built h22 potential hp
You'll like the s300. Especially if your still learning a bit. It's nice having the ability to make small adjustments yourself.. without having to spend the money to take it to a tuner. That being said it also means you have the ability to completely f your motor if your not smart with the tuning adjustments.
07-24-2014, 06:48 AM
#22
Re: built h22 potential hp
I think that the turbo and management will both be good, and the engine should be reliable if assembled correctly.
As said before, that manifold will be holding you back, especially with that turbo. I know you got it cheap, and it has a warranty, but the warranty only does so much good if you are constantly sending it in for repair or replacement. And to be blunt, it will not make the power that a well designed manifold will make.
On a similar engine setup and a GT35 turbo, I have seen a gap of almost 300 WHP just by going from a poorly designed manifold and boost piping, to a well designed setup. A better manifold will spool better, flow better, allow the wastegate/s to control the boost properly, dissipate heat and vibration well etc.
As said before, that manifold will be holding you back, especially with that turbo. I know you got it cheap, and it has a warranty, but the warranty only does so much good if you are constantly sending it in for repair or replacement. And to be blunt, it will not make the power that a well designed manifold will make.
On a similar engine setup and a GT35 turbo, I have seen a gap of almost 300 WHP just by going from a poorly designed manifold and boost piping, to a well designed setup. A better manifold will spool better, flow better, allow the wastegate/s to control the boost properly, dissipate heat and vibration well etc.
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