Tony the Tiger

Recently I've finished up a pretty interesting build for a customer with some good results...

The car is a 2004 Acura TL, and the car has been first turbocharged back in early 2011 with the stock motor and a GT35R setup.

Quickly afterwards, the quest for more power lead to more boost, bigger FMIC, fuel system, etc... Due to the FlashPro being unavailable a few years ago, the car had an AEM EMS V1 custom wired in along with a manual throttlebody conversion. Shortly after, the ignition system was not keeping up due to wasted spark on the V1 box, so it was upgraded to a Haltech P2000 for full sequential operation. It also has S2000 coil packs as well.
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Video:
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To keep things short, the stock 3.2 motor end up holding up to 442 HP / 392 TQ. Unfortunately, due to stock valve train, the motor quickly dropped a valve and the stock motor was destroyed.

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Time for a built motor...

The goal of the new motor build was to somehow give this car a very responsive feeling down at really low RPM's. The car sees downtown traffic most of the week and only gets to be raced on the weekends, and the idea was to have a very snappy low-end right off idle for a big motor feeling. Even with a GT35R and 0.63 housing at the early stages of the setup, the owner did not like the fact he had to wait for power although it builds 5 PSI at 2500RPM on tap which is already very decent. He just wants the car to rip off the line from a slow roll like a highly tuned N/A G37/370Z/etc.. for the low speed stuff.

For the build, I went with a 3.5L bottom-end with high compression setup using Wiseco pistons with HD pins, 5cc dome and with the J32 head it result with 12.5:1 CR. The piston is labelled for a K24 with part number visible on the piston even though it was technically a custom piston offered by Wiseco.



Still using the GT35R, the turbo is now running out of efficiency range with the engine pulling in about 60 lbs/min worth of air and running the compressor at the edge of the map. If I chased the flow line on the compressor map, it is off the charts most of the time during spool up. So I've built a custom dual pass FMIC just for this occasion, and it helped bumped up the pressure ratios and the car held boost much better; although the turbo still has trouble maintaining boost and has very odd spool up characteristics.
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Here's a dyno video run of the GT35R maxed out:
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Just recently, I have upgraded the turbo to an HKS T51R... The HKS compact design made it possible for me to fit a large frame turbo in the tight engine bay. I was very familiar with HKS turbos and have used them on many other platforms, and this was a turbo I wanted to use for a high compression 94 oct setup.

Here are some pics:





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Lastly, a video with the final setup:
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Final notes...

I expected the high compression ratio to be one of the biggest obstacles for high power on 94 oct, but turns out that as long as the exhaust pressures are kept in check, the engine still takes whatever you throw at it. It's not the first time I have done something similar, if you follow my F22C builds, along with my older higher CR setups back in the day.

The unique design of the exhaust ports on the J32A3 made it a header-less design. For the pre-turbo pipes, I made it for extra volume in mind. The pipes are 3" starting at the ports on both banks, then both necks down to 1.625" and merges into a collector, then flares back out to 3" at the turbo, similar to a mini expansion chamber. It has kept exhaust pressure low right at the exhaust ports even though it was running 18+ PSI of boost. I have managed to cheat an exhaust pressure differential between the exhaust port and the turbine housing inlet (I have pressure ports at both locations) by about half even after consecutive hot runs.

Due to this high of a compression, I did go conservative with the tune but it has still brought me good numbers. On 94 oct and 6% of 50/50 water/meth based on ID750cc injectors at 95% IDC, the peak water/meth flow was 270cc/min. It doesn't impact the tune and is used as a transparent safety buffer against bad gas the pumps on a daily basis. The car was first tuned without the water/meth system on, and then was activated with almost no change in power and a slight lower AFR and no adjustments on fuel or timing.


Power numbers on 94 oct:



Power numbers on unleaded 114oct (local race fuel):



Here's a wallpaper I made for my website, thought I'd share it




Full setup list:

J32A3 Engine (Fully stock ports)
J35A8 OEM Crank
Wiseco Pistons with HD Pins, 12.5:1 CR
Pauter Rods
ARP Main Studs and Head Studs
Supertech Springs/Retainers/Valves
OEM MLS Headgasket
Custom Pre-Turbo Pipes
HKS T51R KAI BB 1.00 A/R V-Band
3.5" DP / Small section of 3.0" MP
Dual 2.25" Rear Sections
ID750's / Walbro 255LPH / Bosch 044 Inline
-6AN Line from Bosch 044 to rails
AEM Universal FPR
Stock Fuel Rails
Manual Throttle Body Conversion (from a pre-03 TL)
Haltech Platinum Sport 2000
S2000 Coil Packs (connectors are P&P)
AEM Water/Meth
Custom ClutchMasters Twin Disc Clutch
OEM 6-spd Transmission w/ OEM LSD
Custom Hasport Mounts
Full Rotora BBK 6-pot Front and 4-pot Rears




Hope you guys enjoyed the post

mar778c

iTrader: (1)

Just wow. Jaw drops.

$MIKE$

iTrader: (13)

wow amazing job.

LightningTeg

Impressive as usual

ballistic1350

iTrader: (7)

Um wow, your post almost always impress!

Mattb16teg

Holy crap!

h2.4

Nice torque curve. Looks great

Freemananana

iTrader: (3)

Impressive write up! That's pretty awesome. So just over 400 wHP blew the J32 in stock configuration.

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

Little rich on the decel eh? Love it Tony, thanks for sharing!

Charlie Moua

iTrader: (3)

just from the title of the thread , i was seriously was expecting some 900-1000whp J built motor

But i realized this is J ain't a drag queen and it's shoved in a sports sedan...... = I'm even more impressed even at 700whp.


That is one dedicated TL owner.

Mattb16teg

Would you mind sharing ballpark $$ figures for this build?

D-Rob

I dig. Makes me wish I had a 6MT TL.

Tony the Tiger

Thanks for the compliments everyone

This build was fun, especially when it needs to meet strict demands of a pure street car... It was inspired by my own personal cars which not too many customers here are too concerned about (they just want to go fast and as reliable as possible).

The owner needs this car to drive like factory with everything working (A/C, cluster, gauges, etc...) and no rattles or noises. That means nothing is rubbing against the chassis, no vibrating pipes, etc.. Everything had rubber mounts or brackets. I had to make fabrication tweaks to the turbo setup in the first year because stuff moves around and the room is tight and had complaints from him. The owner also has a huge sound system and uses it all the time too, so my fuel system had to be sized for a struggling alternator with battery voltage that varies from 11.0 v to 13.0v depending on how much he cranks the system. Let's just say it was one of the rare moments that I had to tune for precise battery offsets and varying fuel pressures from extreme voltage fluctuations. Literally I had to verify the tune anc gap the plugs on full throttle runs versus his volume ****...LOL

I had to size the injectors dead on the spot, use hotter spark plugs, etc.. It is on a 7-heatrange plug because the car spends a lot of time in bumper to bumper traffic and really short trips on a daily basis. When I first put in 8's, the plugs would foul after a month or so.


There is a throttle kicker that runs off a vacuum actuator and a separate PWM air valve in the exhaust stream for a rally style anti-lag system. The vacuum actuator will open more as vacuum drops and has greater range across the load scale so the backfire can be sustained longer. The PWM valve sends a rush of air before the turbo, so the first few harsh pops is combustion before the turbine mixed with tip-out fueling. It's not a rich condition like everyone thinks, but a controlled lean burn only on decel. You can see my Supra video which uses the same setup:



I haven't logged how much he spent in total for his current setup because he had the setup in stages. His first turbo setup from scratch was $10k, which was a full running setup and tuned. Over the stages, I re-did certain things, new EMS, etc... My guess, about $20-25k if he's to build this current setup from scratch in one shot

Black R

TTT is a beast!

And this build ain't bad either...

How's the tranny holding up?

I'm really impressed with the high static compression ratio.

riceball777

Very impressive build. Its not every day you see a turbo honda that's not a 4 cylinder.

I just don't under stand how it's possible that you have 12.5 compression and your boosting 18+ pounds making over 600whp on straight pump 93octane fuel

Usually boost with compression that high = race fuel or e85 required.

If u look at my sig. I have a s2000 with the stock 11:1 compression motor. I can only make low 400's for power and can only boost 14 psi. With race gas/e85 I can max out my turbo and make 600+whp easy.

What's the secret ?

ls joker

he said it was from his custom manifold.

nice done. just curious how long the tranny is gona hold up. i was under the impression that tl's had **** tranny

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

Don't forget the meth injection.

riceball777

I would love to see so e pictures of the turbo manifold setup if possible.

ballistic1350

iTrader: (7)

Me too

Tony the Tiger

Whenever a new OEM car ends up taking things to the next level, I try to gather all the data I can, and then do small scale testing and eventually go full scale when I have the opportunity.

First move was taking data from the new FRS/BRZ which comes with 12.5:1 CR from the factory; although direct injected, the secondary set of injectors takes care of the fueling at high power and high RPM's. If the FA20 (4U-GSE) can run 12-13 PSI of boost with a turbo kit, making about 200WHP per L on 91 oct, I don't see why I can't do it on another platform if I can maintain the same type of efficiency even up to 18-23+ PSI. . HP/L is just one of the basic measurements; I look at things like comp/turbine maps, what RPM it makes the power, where it can run the leanest with the highest VE (showing peak combustion efficiency, etc..) which is also a safe zone for the engine. Boost is just a number, and has little to do with knock limits and efficiency if the added boost does not hinder it.. e.g. Evo's can run 30+ PSI on pump, other motors can't simply due to difference of VE curves. For example, different engines have different characteristics, and the key is to find out why and how it happens.

Taking the unique characteristics of this particular boxer motor, it has the biggest advantage of long exhaust runners simulating a very long lengthed header. By chasing the factory AVCS/VVT maps, I could see where I can feed this engine the most timing under a static cam timing and when the turbo decides to "take over" from exhaust pressure. I have experience with tuning and building many popular engines which is a big help. A single turbo can only fill one section on a full VE curve of the engine. Once you overlay many of these curves over, you will choose turbo(s), exhaust length, intake design, etc.. to match this curve. I strictly kept the bone stock J32 intake manifold and left the cylinder heads unported for this reason. The engine needs to run with a very balanced intake/exhaust flow ratio similar to the FA20 as wide as RPM as possible, and can only drop out of this region at the safe zones of the engine where it can run the leanest based on its inherit head design and engine geometry. By going with a stock intake manifold and stock ports, it allows the intake side to win over the exhaust side at the low RPM regions, thus, there is almost zero chance for heat to ever get back into the chambers during turbo spool up when the turbo is at minimum efficiency. Together with the long exhaust runners and more volume in the exhaust header, the exhaust has room to exit the motor when the stock intake manifold and ports are falling behind at high RPM's so I can feed it more ignition timing in relation to power to keep EGT's low. With high compression, this heat is what causes knock on a given fuel. Remember when our oldschool B20 VTEC 13.0:1 CR all motor build required us to have awesome headers like Hytech or SMSP back in the day? A good header "makes or breaks" the build. Having these principles in mind, it gives me a deeper understanding since I was a hardcore NA guy back in the early days of '98-01. Eventually, this combination of parts have eventually mimicked a torque curve of the FA20 from the J-series engine as well as near the FA20 limits, although I still fell short of it though (200WHP per L should have been 700WHP on a J35 on pump gas.

It wasn't a one-shot type of deal, I had more data obtained when this car had the old GT35R. I had over a year to plan this out, along with more testing and learning as I go


I did a similar thing a few years ago with my Supra as well, making 1444 WHP, and well over 1200WHP on 94 oct, following the Honda F22C/F20C, and has a torque curve just like an S2000 but inside a 2JZ-GTE. Most guys on the Supraforums didn't understand what I was doing, but the Supra community is nowhere near as smart as the OG's here on Honda-tech. That's why I always post here...lol

http://www.dynamotorsports.ca/dynogr...116octDyno.jpg

I eventually did the same thing with my Camry as well, and it actually makes this power on 94 oct now:
http://www.dynamotorsports.ca/dynogr...00plusDyno.jpg


I don't rely on meth to buffer knock.. The engine must be able to do it by itself, and the water/meth is just there to keep things efficient. At about 5-6% of overall meth flow, it simulates an engine running in a cool humid night, and takes the strain away from intercooling, EGT spikes and helps broaden the engine's flash points. This J32/J35 only sees 270cc/min of water/meth at full boost, which is totally transparent to the tune (no tuning changes made needed), and it does not gain or lose power just like a minor octane bump (like running 93 oct on a 91 oct map).

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

how are you overcoming exhaust manifold backpressure to inject the air? is the valve plumbed into the intercooler piping and uses the last bit of pressure in the charge pipe system when the throttle is closed to do so?

I'm curious about this system as I plan on running rally style ALS but was going to have a manual way to hold the itbs open say 30% and just retard timing when conditions are met. it would also have cyclic/rotational idle so when the throttle is cracked 30% it will still idle around 800rpm

I have seen a diy setup on a bugeye wrx that uses two brass valves that feed air from after the turbo to the intake manifold post throttle. setup works well but so do the new EMS based timing versions

hard to say which method is easier on the motor, valvetrain, and turbo though. thoughts?

also why not use the j35 heads? they do flow slightly better and have better cams (which could always be swapped into the 32 but I'd going for cams from a j35a8(plus heads) or the j37a1 cams)

also what's the part number for the pistons? I've been debating building a j35a8

Tony the Tiger

Manifold setup is under the car, but I forget to take good pics when I am actually working...

I have some pics off my cell phone:



Where it merges, it flares out back to 3" and to the turbo.

Tony the Tiger

I stayed stock heads, stock intake manifold and stock cams on this build as explained earlier. I am trying to cap the comp flow below 70 lbs/min of flow at the 15-20 PSI region or it will start to run off the map.

The J35 heads may not work better for the T51R. There is no room to fit a GT42 turbo either, and the GTX billet wheel is only available for the full size GT42 housing. I can only use more flow if the compressor can supply it. The EFR's all fall out of range with this motor in single configuration (and no V-band either).

For now, 94 oct is what this car spends most of its time on, and on the 70mm GT4294 wheel (same as T51R), it is smack right in the peak efficiency from 1.0 to 2.5 pressure ratio throughout the entire powerband of the car. By keeping compressor/turbine efficiency in range, exhaust pressures in check, EGT's controlled and linear airflow at widest RPM possible, the margin of safety is much higher.

For the ALS, it has a 0.625" slash tube at the section where my pre-turbo pipe expands before the turbo. It doesn't work against exhaust pressure because the throttle is closed and the engine is cruising during ALS.

The part number for the piston is Wiseco K634M89

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

I'll beg for photos of the pwm solenoid plumbing lol

HatchVX

I love the fact that someone turboed a TL instead of going the typical supercharger. AWESOME work.