trowe

11/14
I have A 1999 Honda Civic that I had the 105K tuneup done at 104,500 miles. I am now at 117,000 miles and brought my car in for servicing (to a shop different then the shop that did my 105,000) and was told that the mechanic notice a wire dangling down that indicated the timing belt was put on incorrectly. They also noticed upon further inspection the crank sensor wires were damaged because they were rubbing against the belts ?

However, the big shock was the mechanic said upon removal of the timing cover the technician noted that there was a gouge in the crankshaft that also damaged the harmonic balancer. The estimate to repair would be 4,500. The mechanic indicated that this issue occurred probably at the 105,000 tuneup.

Note when I initially had the 105,000 service (note I am at 117,000 miles now) within 2 weeks of the 105,000 tune-up I lost power steering. When I brought it back to Honda they said they goofed something up during the 105,000 tuneup/timing belt service and the crankshaft pulley came loose and belts fell off...They assured me at the time that no damage was done and put the belts back on..


11/19
The dealership that did the timing belt service at 105,000 miles has now had my car for a week. The only thing they will tell me at this point is they do see a crack in the Cranksaft Keyhole. They will not tell me if the timing belt service was the culprit and if they will fix my issue at there expense until next week when they cam meet with management.

Is it reasonable to believe that the timing belt service and subsequent pulleys coming off 2 weeks after the 105K service is the reason for my damaged car.

Link to picture of damaged crank sensor wire
http://www.hondacivicforum.com/forum...108_200915-jpg

Link to the picture of gouged crankshaft
http://www.hondacivicforum.com/forum...p-img_0143-jpg

98civdx

$4500?! He is ****ing high!!

Take your car and go some where else, right now.


Also, I can't see the pictures without signing up. and I am not signing up.
Please post post them here, not links to some other site.

apexi_rsx

replace the bottom end yourself. you can buy a motor for 500 tops.

NOFX

If you do purchase another motor (which is the easiest way out here probably), keep a few things in mind.

Your 1999 Honda Civic is OBD2b. This means it is On Board Diagnostics 2b. The easiest way to do this is to swap in the same engine you have, which means you'd want another OBD2b engine.

If I recall they're basically the same engines, but some sensors might slightly vary, or plugs or the ECU programming. I'm not 100% sure, but a little research will tell you. Using the 1999-2000 engine type that you already have will just make sure everything just plugs right in.

1992-1995 Civic engines are OBD1, 1996-1998 Civic engines are OBD2a and 1999-2000 Civic engines are OBD2b.

There are a few different engines used in the 1996-2000 Civics. Remember that all of these (except the B16A2) were available as OBD2a (1996-1998) and OBD2b (1999-2000).

You can find the engine code stamped on the front of the engine block on a 1 inch by 1 inch (approx.) flat section just to the passenger side of the exhaust manifold.

The Civic CX/DX/LX use the D16Y7 (that's the engine code), the 106hp 1.6L SOHC engine.

The Civic HX uses the D16Y5, the 115hp 1.6L SOHC VTEC-E engine.

The Civic GX (very rare) uses the D16B5, the 1.6L SOHC VTEC-E CNG (compressed natural gas) engine.

The Civic EX uses the D16Y8, the 127hp 1.6L SOHC VTEC engine.

The Civic Si uses the B16A2, the 160hp 1.6L DOHC VTEC engine.

The easiest option would be to replace your engine with the same type of engine that came out of the car. So, if you have an EX, for example, and EX engine (D16Y8) would drop in easiest. Any of the D-series engines should drop in with minimal work (same axles, etc. - you WILL want the matching ECU though) if your car came with a D-series engine to begin with (that is, if it's not an Si).

As for swapping the engine, these engines (besides the B16A2) are all sub-$1000 engines. Often people swap these engines out in order to upgrade to something slightly more powerful. I would expect you could get a replacement D-series engine for around $200-$500. I understand you might not be the shadetree mechanic type, like many of us are, so a swap in your garage is probably out of the question (with knowledgeable people this would be maybe a two day job - a day to pull the old one and a day to install the new one).

There's a guy I know who used to work as a Honda technician and I think he charges about $600 to install an engine, axles, shift linkage, ECU, and he even builds a custom wire harness (which can be time consuming). So you can definitely get this all done for a much more reasonable price than $4500. In fact, $4500 is about how much you could buy a whole other '99-'00 Civic CX/DX/EX/LX. DO NOT LET THAT SHOP INSTALL AN ENGINE IN YOUR CAR. It's likely they are quoting you by the book, which is saying an engine swap take XX hours at $XX/hour plus cost of the engine, fluids, etc., which would come out to $4500.

---------------------

It seems you're saying the initial tune up service and the recent diagnostics were both done by two different Honda dealerships. You might be able to work something out with Honda in order to get them to cover this, but be prepared for them to fight tooth and nail to not cover it. I am not sure how their customer service is when it comes to one dealership screwing up.

NOFX

Btw, here are both your images rehosted. Click for full size, please.

trowe

1- I am not a mechanic and if the dealership is going to stick to there books to fix my issue for 4,500 USD, then how do I find a reliable mechanic to fix my issue for the prices suggested above. Suggestion, thoughts..

2- Is it reasonable to think that my current crankshaft issues are a result of the timing belt service mishaps that occurred 2 weeks after the service (crankshaft pulleys fell off, etc.) I am just curious what experts such as yourself think because the Honda dealership that did my timing belt service is suppose to meet this week to determine if they should pay/fix for damages. The fact they have taken my car apart at his point I think is a hopeful sign ? In any event hopefully I do not not need to put my kids Christmas money towards fixing my Honda or a new Honda.

3. Someone asked why I posted links to my pictures. It was due to the fact that my membership did not allow to upload attachments. Thank you NOFX for posting my pictures.

WeslyWills5

Most likely the crank pulley was NOT installed correctly after the timing belt service. This screw up should be paid for in full by the tard who botched this timing belt job in the first place.

I have worked at my current dealership for 6 years and have seen a lot of hacks, you sir have a hacked job on your hands. Bottom line, take this car back to the guy who screwed it up in the first place and tell him to fix it right.

WeslyWills5

This makes me laugh, of course they are quoting 4500. What you don`t realize is they are probably quoting a brand new engine and the flat rate time to install it.

Please understand that dealerships do not go on ebay and find used cheap engines to install, that`s just not how it works.

The cost of this repair to the OP should be FREE. As obviously some "mechanic" really screwed this up. There is a service manager out there that should be having someone`s head on a platter for doing such a horrible job on this customer`s car.

Sleepy_Red_hatch

that sounds more likely to be a quote for replacing the crank and possibly crank and rod bearings...quite expensive parts from honda.

and the keyway being wrecked like that i would say that they didnt torque the crank pulley to spec

and the harness is just the crank sensor harness, common for aftermarket shops to forget to tuck it back into the guides on the lower timing cover....havent seen a dealership bung that one yet....

and yes they should cover it. if not, call american honda.

98civdx

I'm not a dumbass, I know how a dealer works.


$4500 is crazy, that is a new civic. i would hope the dealer would be smart enough to remember you don't have to replace the whole engine.

But, I agree. Some one really did screw this up big time.

motegicivic

You might be lucky it was honda that screwed it up and not a local shop, good luck with having a local shop doing good.

I would think honda will cover the damages. If not go to the dealer owner, does not work go to american honda and file a complaint.

98civdx

Honda from what I have been told is normally pretty good about taking care of people.


IF the dealer will not help you, keep calm but make a big stink about it. legal action(sometimes a letter from a lawyer is all you need). Go above their heads. Owner,etc. The local BBB.

There is lots of ways to get a company to do what you want.

redm3turbo

I used to work at a dealer and I guarantee you I could tell you what the dealer is taking so long to decided upon, and really what weighs the balance.

How long has elapsed between your 105K and your current mileage of 117k...? you said 2 weeks later you lost p/s but I dont see how long it has been since then, until now that the problem occurred.

Was it 2 months or 2 years? (everyone has different driving habits)

If it was under a year, I see Honda standing up, and fixing you up. If its over a year, I see you having to take it to the next step (contact owner, bbb, threaten legal action, etc etc etc)

If the problem is related to them their case will be... if we (Honda) did it wrong, it wouldn't have lasted 15k miles... The other thing that will look bad, is having a different shop look at the problem, instead of just bringing it right to them. Dealers always know when other shops look at the vehicle because customers come in saying, I think my pressure plate is bad and its a broad that knows 0 about cars. Ok, why do you think that? I just do. (This isnt related to you, Im just saying how it is for 25% of customers)
Alot of times, people do have hack jobs done and then hope for the dealer to fix it for free, of course Im not saying thats what your doing, Im simply stating what the dealer would be looking at. (Customers dont want to pay for repairs 2x, and they hope they can get the dealer to stand behind their products....even though it wasn't the dealer that messed up) Another thing they do is look at the tech who performed the work, and his mistakes records. Does he have alot of "come-backs" or is he generally good.

Thats the basic jist of it....hope it all works out for you. It will cost the dealer pennies on the dollar to fix it for you.

trowe

Ok, the dealer called and said they would not replace the crankshaft since the damage only warranted a repair not a replacement. They indicated the keyway was broken on the outside, but there is enough structure on the inside that replacement of the crankshaft is not a reasonable request.

They propose to do the following:
Replace the Crankshaft Pulley
Replace the woodruff key
Replace the crankshaft bolt

Should this repair be fine given my issue.

CFiannotti

Find out how much of the keyway is good.It may not be DEEP enough into the crank to keep the woodruff key exactly where it belongs. Torque might angle the key, and maybe might affect the lower TB pulley.

98civdx

Look at the pictures, they key way is trashed.

apexi_rsx

looks like someone tried to jb or epoxy it in already. just replace the bottom end and save the headache of installing a crank and being more precise with bearing clearances. u can just install a bottom end or whole motor easily with a friend and a few beers if ur old enough for that =op

BobbyRodriguez

Yeah its a honda dude, it only cost 500$ to run ,..... i mean a motor to put in the car to run...

LONG LIVE HONDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

trowe

The technician provided me with the following response on why the repair is sufficient:

1. Crankshaft Keyway was partially broken on right side
2. Broken Portion of right wall of keyway was primarily confined to frontal half of keyway wall
3. Left wall of keyway was fully intact. Intact left wall combined with remaining intact portion of right wall would allow sufficient support material for installation of new woodruff key to secure cranksaht pulley effectively
4. If crankshaft pulley/pulley bolt/woodruff key were to be replaced and components assembled using appropriate thread locking compund for components in question the damaged portion of keyway's right wall would not have any practical detrimental effect to the security of attachment of crankshaft pulley to end of crankshaft.

Does it seem reasonable for me to conclude that this repair will settle my issue ?

pwebb0207

it looks like they really chose their words on this one. very professional and well said.

I feel like enough tension is placed on the bolt flange to lock the pulley to the crank anyways. and if you've ever removed a crank pulley you'll know it doesn't slip right off. there is a lot of tension both from the torque of the bolt combined with the near press-fit pulley to the crank.

the woodruff almost seems redundant. that repair will suffice.

98civdx

I have, and my car personaly poped right off. Both hands, very slight pull and it came off, key stayed it the pulley. Then again, my slight pull could be different from someone elses. Weaker/stronger etc.
That is how they are made, they're supposed to pop right off.

10psiLsEf2

WTF? 4500??

I did a New/Used engine on a 03 f-150 and the shop charged 3100? with flat rare and new tranny.

F/them dude. go to a local junkyard on a half off day. 200 for complete long block. rebuild it for like 500 max!!! and done!
have someone here on h-t who is local install it! if you are new to the scene.

tvrsir

any retard would know that the tech didnt tighten down the crank pulley bolt. thus working it's way loose and in the process destroyed the keyway and pulley.

I WOULD USED THE 4500 AND SUE THEM FOR DAMAGES AND LAWYER COST AND THE REPAIR. I BET THEY WOULD FIX THIS WITH A USED ENGINE FOR FREE.
THREATEN THEM WITHA LAWSUIT