How to tighten Harmonic Balancer bolt with out special tools
03-20-2011, 07:51 AM
#51
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: How to tighten Harmonic Balancer bolt with out special tools
I do have that option, but that would involve driving the car there. Wouldn't get to far with the bolt missing lol
03-20-2011, 08:04 AM
#53
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: How to tighten Harmonic Balancer bolt with out special tools
Okay cool, Thanks a bunch man. Should hold me over until I buy a B swap 
03-20-2011, 08:14 AM
#54
Re: How to tighten Harmonic Balancer bolt with out special tools
Laws of physics say the torque at the torque wrench end will equal the torque at the bolt head. Extensions make no difference.
03-20-2011, 08:33 AM
#56
Re: How to tighten Harmonic Balancer bolt with out special tools
Else you are saying that it is possible to apply the teeniest amount of force to such a spring; the spring will deflect the teeniest amount; but there will be no force on the wall? In fact the force on the wall is (spring constant) x (deflection) which will also be the same as the force applied at the non-wall end. The principle is the same in torsion.
Last edited by honda.lioness; 03-20-2011 at 12:28 PM.
03-20-2011, 03:39 PM
#57
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Re: How to tighten Harmonic Balancer bolt with out special tools
the force used to twist the extensions uses up some of the energy that would be transferred to the bolt, the torque wrench says one thing, but the bolt sees another, you don't get anything for free, the energy that twists the extensions comes from somewhere, in this case it's coming from the force applied to the torque wrench, you are doing two kinds of work, one is tightening the bolt, the other is twisting the extensions, the energy that is causing the twist is subtracted from the energy turning the bolt
03-20-2011, 03:57 PM
#58
Re: How to tighten Harmonic Balancer bolt with out special tools
Conservation of energy (really not relevant here but whatever) and sum of the forces equal zero (in an overwhelmingly statics situation such as applying torque slowly) both apply.
If you have not had at least a course in first year physics and done well in this course, it is probably not worth discussing in this venue. Torque wrench readings are a very poor measure of how "tight" a bolt is holding anyway. That is, measured torque correlates poorly to "bolt clamping strength." So you folks who think you need to apply extra torque because of this myth, have at it. OTOH, maybe all the buying-into of this myth (and so incorrectly applying extra torque) might explain all the broken crankshaft pulley bolts that are reported here. ;-)
03-20-2011, 06:18 PM
#59
Honda-Tech Member
Re: How to tighten Harmonic Balancer bolt with out special tools
Your showing him how to take it off not put it on. I know the same basic concept of what your showing him applies to tightening, but you need to also specify that he cannot use 2 feet of extensins when torquing weather it be with a torque wrench or with an impact gun. There is nothing wrong with using an impact gun on it.
Explain to me how using extensions will throw your torque off with a torque wrench and yet the impact gun is more precise?
03-20-2011, 06:21 PM
#60
Honda-Tech Member
Re: How to tighten Harmonic Balancer bolt with out special tools
03-20-2011, 06:28 PM
#61
Honda-Tech Member
Re: How to tighten Harmonic Balancer bolt with out special tools
I wouldn't because its hard enough to get these loose when they are torqued to spec and you might have to use heat on the bolt to get it loose with loctite and heat is not good for crankshafts/seals/belts/oil pumps/things that were once heat treated etc.
03-20-2011, 06:30 PM
#62
Honda-Tech Member
Re: How to tighten Harmonic Balancer bolt with out special tools
You're right 100% but the crank pulley bolt can be put on with a decent impact gun just fine without any issues and this has been stated by others including Honda/Acura technitians. There isn't any worry of having the crank pulley tightened evenly in a certain pattern. It's one bolt that requires a certain torque setting but can be done with an impact gun and tightened close enough to that torque without a torque wrench. Even if you used the above suggested method with angle iron you wont get an acurate torque reading. In order to properly torque the bolt to spec you need the proper crank pulley tool to secure the crank in one place without having any play or give in the metal holding the crank in place. That being said, the OP stated he doesn't have this tool so any attempt of acurately torquing this bolt would be a failure. His best bet would be to use an impact gun.
03-20-2011, 06:36 PM
#63
Honda-Tech Member
Re: How to tighten Harmonic Balancer bolt with out special tools
I'd think if anything your torque would be slightly higher after all is said and done with the extensions' stored-twist catching up.
03-20-2011, 06:50 PM
#64
Honda-Tech Member
Re: How to tighten Harmonic Balancer bolt with out special tools
You know, I use a torque wrench on every nut and bolt that is critical as far as cost and safety. Imact guns might be ok for loosening, especially if the part concerned is being replaced or removed and can be easily repaired if necessary. A crankshaft does not meet this definition for me unless the engine is undergoing a rebuild.
I even torque my lug nuts to the proper spec. Haven't had a warped rotor in forever.
I even torque my lug nuts to the proper spec. Haven't had a warped rotor in forever.
03-20-2011, 07:05 PM
#65
Re: How to tighten Harmonic Balancer bolt with out special tools
The bolt is like $5 or something from Honda. Expensive for a bolt, but it's an important part.
If your flywheel has the hex shape, you can make a tool by using a piece of iron pipe, a T fitting and a reducer. I think it was a 1 1/2" reducer that the hex head is almost as big as the hex shape on the pulley. It's close enough that it works and won't round.
Remember that when you torque a fastener, it takes like 3x as much torque to loosen it. So don't go on it too hard.
If your flywheel has the hex shape, you can make a tool by using a piece of iron pipe, a T fitting and a reducer. I think it was a 1 1/2" reducer that the hex head is almost as big as the hex shape on the pulley. It's close enough that it works and won't round.
Remember that when you torque a fastener, it takes like 3x as much torque to loosen it. So don't go on it too hard.
03-20-2011, 07:14 PM
#66
Re: How to tighten Harmonic Balancer bolt with out special tools
the force used to twist the extensions uses up some of the energy that would be transferred to the bolt, the torque wrench says one thing, but the bolt sees another, you don't get anything for free, the energy that twists the extensions comes from somewhere, in this case it's coming from the force applied to the torque wrench, you are doing two kinds of work, one is tightening the bolt, the other is twisting the extensions, the energy that is causing the twist is subtracted from the energy turning the bolt
I've had issues with my junky impact wrench where with a long extension it wouldn't knock bolts loose, but with a shorter one it's able to.
I think it's more the wrench having to move the extension and the fastener and that extra mass just takes more to move. A massless, perfectly rigid extension wouldn't have this issue. But in the real world, a heavy impact extension has an effect on how an impact wrench performs just because of it's weight.
03-20-2011, 07:16 PM
#67
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Re: How to tighten Harmonic Balancer bolt with out special tools
That's true of any impact wrench, a lot of vibration is lost both in the extension itself and between the gun and extension and the extension and socket.
03-20-2011, 08:46 PM
#68
Re: How to tighten Harmonic Balancer bolt with out special tools
It's just with better tools it's not as much an issue, but when every foot pound of torque counts...you notice.
03-21-2011, 02:37 AM
#69
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Re: How to tighten Harmonic Balancer bolt with out special tools
Set an old suspension spring on a home scale. Note the weight of the spring. Now set yourself down on the spring, so it compresses some. Note the scale reading. It will read exactly your weight plus the weight of the spring. The deflection of the spring is irrelevant. This is despite the fact that the spring has stored energy as you sit on it. This stored energy equals the force (of your weight) acting through (multiplied by) a distance (the deflection of the spring).
Conservation of energy (really not relevant here but whatever) and sum of the forces equal zero (in an overwhelmingly statics situation such as applying torque slowly) both apply.
If you have not had at least a course in first year physics and done well in this course, it is probably not worth discussing in this venue. Torque wrench readings are a very poor measure of how "tight" a bolt is holding anyway. That is, measured torque correlates poorly to "bolt clamping strength." So you folks who think you need to apply extra torque because of this myth, have at it. OTOH, maybe all the buying-into of this myth (and so incorrectly applying extra torque) might explain all the broken crankshaft pulley bolts that are reported here. ;-)
Conservation of energy (really not relevant here but whatever) and sum of the forces equal zero (in an overwhelmingly statics situation such as applying torque slowly) both apply.
If you have not had at least a course in first year physics and done well in this course, it is probably not worth discussing in this venue. Torque wrench readings are a very poor measure of how "tight" a bolt is holding anyway. That is, measured torque correlates poorly to "bolt clamping strength." So you folks who think you need to apply extra torque because of this myth, have at it. OTOH, maybe all the buying-into of this myth (and so incorrectly applying extra torque) might explain all the broken crankshaft pulley bolts that are reported here. ;-)
03-21-2011, 02:47 AM
#70
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Re: How to tighten Harmonic Balancer bolt with out special tools
The bolt is like $5 or something from Honda. Expensive for a bolt, but it's an important part.
If your flywheel has the hex shape, you can make a tool by using a piece of iron pipe, a T fitting and a reducer. I think it was a 1 1/2" reducer that the hex head is almost as big as the hex shape on the pulley. It's close enough that it works and won't round.
Remember that when you torque a fastener, it takes like 3x as much torque to loosen it. So don't go on it too hard.
If your flywheel has the hex shape, you can make a tool by using a piece of iron pipe, a T fitting and a reducer. I think it was a 1 1/2" reducer that the hex head is almost as big as the hex shape on the pulley. It's close enough that it works and won't round.
Remember that when you torque a fastener, it takes like 3x as much torque to loosen it. So don't go on it too hard.
03-21-2011, 05:12 AM
#71
Re: How to tighten Harmonic Balancer bolt with out special tools
No.
If torquing using a calibrated torque wrench is done with a rapid motion, then it is less likely the clicked torque is the desired applied torque. But a rapid motion when torquing is bad practice in the first place. It is easy to overshoot the click point etc. No to your comment on how the stored twist 'catches up' and may throw off torque compared to the clicked value (assuming torquing is done slowly).
If torquing using a calibrated torque wrench is done with a rapid motion, then it is less likely the clicked torque is the desired applied torque. But a rapid motion when torquing is bad practice in the first place. It is easy to overshoot the click point etc. No to your comment on how the stored twist 'catches up' and may throw off torque compared to the clicked value (assuming torquing is done slowly).
Last edited by honda.lioness; 03-21-2011 at 01:41 PM.
03-21-2011, 12:35 PM
#73
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Re: How to tighten Harmonic Balancer bolt with out special tools
No.
Strategy400, yes in theory if torquing using a calibrated torque wrench is done with a rapid motion, then it is less likely the clicked torque is the desired applied torque. But a rapid motion when torquing is bad practice in the first place. It is easy to overshoot the click point etc. No to your comment on how the stored twist 'catches up' and may throw off torque compared to the clicked value (assuming torquing is done slowly).
Strategy400, yes in theory if torquing using a calibrated torque wrench is done with a rapid motion, then it is less likely the clicked torque is the desired applied torque. But a rapid motion when torquing is bad practice in the first place. It is easy to overshoot the click point etc. No to your comment on how the stored twist 'catches up' and may throw off torque compared to the clicked value (assuming torquing is done slowly).
03-27-2011, 03:28 AM
#74
Honda-Tech Member
Re: How to tighten Harmonic Balancer bolt with out special tools
No.
If torquing using a calibrated torque wrench is done with a rapid motion, then it is less likely the clicked torque is the desired applied torque. But a rapid motion when torquing is bad practice in the first place. It is easy to overshoot the click point etc. No to your comment on how the stored twist 'catches up' and may throw off torque compared to the clicked value (assuming torquing is done slowly).
If torquing using a calibrated torque wrench is done with a rapid motion, then it is less likely the clicked torque is the desired applied torque. But a rapid motion when torquing is bad practice in the first place. It is easy to overshoot the click point etc. No to your comment on how the stored twist 'catches up' and may throw off torque compared to the clicked value (assuming torquing is done slowly).
03-27-2011, 07:09 AM
#75
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: How to tighten Harmonic Balancer bolt with out special tools
I got er done the right way, shes torqued on there now.
I had my car in to the shop to get bushings replaced, I got the mechanic to torque it for me.
I had my car in to the shop to get bushings replaced, I got the mechanic to torque it for me.