Gaspari

Hey guys, my prec sc61 recently took a ****, and I wanna know what you guys think about the wich turbo to get for the most hp per psi? My setup is

9.8:1cps
Skunk2 tuner 1s
Ramhorn mani
Blox intake mani
Not sure on the throttle body...
83mm benson sleeved
Ls 89mm stroke crank

Mostly plean on running pump.. 12 to 14 psi... so just wanna get the biggest hp number for the amount of boost with good spool, but still maintain great potential when I wanna turn the boost up to like 22 or so, max prolly like 25

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

You could do that with an equivalent journal bearing. GT3540S, Garrett Reaper, Borg-Warner S362, etc. Anything over 61lbs/min. But this depends upon what you're trying to do with the car, really.

Gaspari

Honestly... just racing on the street.. it will see very little track time

Gaspari

And shodan. I got a question, you seem super knowlegable and a lot of people respect your opinion, how come you seem to like journal bearing turbos so much? Instead of ball bearing? I am not near the boost whiz u are but I thought ball bearing spooled faster and was just all around better? I know you can shoot me some great insight here

2k.civic.si

Journal Bearings vs. Ball Bearings
The journal bearing has long been the brawn of the turbocharger, however a ball-bearing cartridge is now an affordable technology advancement that provides significant performance improvements to the turbocharger.

Ball bearing innovation began as a result of work with the Garrett Motorsports group for several racing series where it received the term the ‘cartridge ball bearing’. The cartridge is a single sleeve system that contains a set of angular contact ball bearings on either end, whereas the traditional bearing system contains a set of journal bearings and a thrust bearing

Journal Bearings
Ball Bearings


Turbo Response – When driving a vehicle with the cartridge ball bearing turbocharger, you will find exceptionally crisp and strong throttle response. Garrett Ball Bearing turbochargers spool up 15% faster than traditional journal bearings. This produces an improved response that can be converted to quicker 0-60 mph speed. In fact, some professional drivers of Garrett ball-bearing turbocharged engines report that they feel like they are driving a big, normally aspirated engine.

Tests run on CART turbos have shown that ball-bearings have up to half of the power consumption of traditional bearings. The result is faster time to boost which translates into better drivability and acceleration.

On-engine performance is also better in the steady-state for the Garrett Cartridge Ball Bearing



Reduced Oil Flow – The ball bearing design reduces the required amount of oil required to provide adequate lubrication. This lower oil volume reduces the chance for seal leakage. Also, the ball bearing is more tolerant of marginal lube conditions, and diminishes the possibility of turbocharger failure on engine shut down.

Improved Rotordynamics and Durability – The ball bearing cartridge gives better damping and control over shaft motion, allowing enhanced reliability for both everyday and extreme driving conditions. In addition, the opposed angular contact bearing cartridge eliminates the need for the thrust bearing commonly a weak link in the turbo bearing system.

Competitor Ball Bearing Options – Another option one will find is a hybrid ball bearing. This consists of replacing only the compressor side journal bearing with a single angular contact ball bearing. Since the single bearing can only take thrust in one direction, a thrust bearing is still necessary and drag in the turbine side journal bearing is unchanged. With the Garrett ball bearing cartridge the rotor-group is entirely supported by the ball bearings, maximizing efficiency, performance, and durability.

Ball Bearings in Original Equipment – Pumping up the MAZDASPEED Protegé’s heart rate is a Garrett T25 turbocharger system. With Garrett technology on board, the vehicle gains increased acceleration without sacrificing overall efficiency and it has received many rave reviews from the world’s top automotive press for it’s unprecedented performance.

at least is what garret has to say about it...i find the spool time between journal and ball bearing in a car used for drag racing isnt worth the extra $

Gaspari

Oh, and for power goals I would like to make around 350 to 400 on 12lbs and about 550 to 600 on 22 to 25lbs if possible.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Because of the fact of the matter is that in 99% of the situations a journal bearing turbo is all that one needs. I never said that I didn't like ball-bearing turbochargers (having 2 myself, currently). But I have found 2 things over the years on this forum (and several others).

1) One has to be careful of the marketing hype-up that doesn't tell you the WHOLE STORY (like posted above) . I'm a Garrett and borg-warner junkie, but people MUST understand that there's more to ball-bearing CHRAs than just "faster spool" which is actually more of a by-product of good matched wheel design combination and aerodynamics (which is even more important than just the cartridge alone). There are different types of ball-bearing turbochargers. From ceramics systems that are air-cooled, to single-ball-bearing systems that do half the job (no pun intended). Some work better than others, as they are not all constructed to be the same.

There are several turbochargers from different camps that can be very efficient without the need of that ball-bearing system, but people need to know what they are as an option.

2)It's important to understand how these Dual ball-bearing cartridges work.. Many don't know what the additional requirements are when it comes to choosing a Garrett DBB cartridge; or the risks that are involved. Since many are DIYers, and will be installing and maintaining these turbos themselves, they have a better possibility of being able to afford the repair of the turbocharger (even with a billet wheel) then if it were a Garrett DBB cartridge that in many cases are not rebuildable if something goes wrong. In those cases cartridge replacement is just as expensive as FULL replacement. But Garrett doesn't tell you that. They only tell you about the "exchange" program. With a journal bearing, in many cases, their initial investment increases the likelihood of being salvageable.

I mean, its great to advise people about 1 or 2 choices (" oh yeah GT35R, GT3076R"), but they don't think about the additional cost of the water lines and fittings, what return flange is used (it is different than T3/T4s), or even what size restrictor is used. They also don't take into account that the person may not be able to afford a cartridge replacement.
It just goes on and on.

You all know how many threads there are about "what restrictor size?" or "My GT3076R kissed the housing,what do I do?" These pop up a lot when a person listened to the recommendation of someone online and that person giving them guidance didn't tell them the risks or what needed to be done to properly set the damn turbo up in addition to the parameters followed by even journal bearing users. Perhaps that person being adviced is not ready to own the Ball-bearing unit yet, when the journal bearing version can do the job for what he/she needs...

So yes, I am a big advocate of DBB cartridges, but WHEN IT IS NECESSARY BASED UPON THE PERSON'S NEEDS. Its not an all-in-one scenario. Understand the person's needs, budget, and use of the car, then give some ideas and experiences.

Sorry for the book.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Exactly.. And what do MOST people on this particular forum worry about? Drag Racing. getting that quarter mile. (Sadly)

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Posted above
Turbo Response – When driving a vehicle with the cartridge ball bearing turbocharger, you will find exceptionally crisp and strong throttle response. Garrett Ball Bearing turbochargers spool up 15% faster than traditional journal bearings. This produces an improved response that can be converted to quicker 0-60 mph speed. In fact, some professional drivers of Garrett ball-bearing turbocharged engines report that they feel like they are driving a big, normally aspirated engine.

This isn't in every case, but it is for the popular models that use a more efficent turbine wheel like the 56.6mm, 60mm, and 68mm turbine wheels, (which are VERY efficient). Many in other facets (like the SRT-4 guys) still like to use T-series wheels with ball-bearing cartridges.. Ask them if the noticed a big "spool" difference, or change in response...the majority will say no. Why? because the wheel design didn't go with the efficiency of the cartridge.

Posted above
Improved Rotordynamics and Durability – The ball bearing cartridge gives better damping and control over shaft motion, allowing enhanced reliability for both everyday and extreme driving conditions. In addition, the opposed angular contact bearing cartridge eliminates the need for the thrust bearing commonly a weak link in the turbo bearing system.


This is true. Especially in circuit racing and high endurance conditions. why do you think they'are using them in CART, Indy, F3, and endurance races, where oil pressure, heat, and durability are of the utmost priority to worry about? This is what is best about the Garrett DBB stuff as they are designed for that punishment. But unless you really plan to use these to something close those level, with that level of abuse, they aren't absolutely necessary.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Don't worry about pressure so much. If its built, and you have the right equipment, let it boost.

LS/VTEC TURBO

Is the billet 5857 better then the gt35r?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Stop this "better" ****. Look to what you're trying to achieve in terms of goals, power and use. For heavens sake, find out the MEASUREMENTS of these turbochargers and compare them to some of the others that make higher power w/ lower boost. Sure a 5857 can work just fine for a street car or one for the circuit, but may not be best for someone going over 450whp on pump gas to go drag racing (despite what they are "rated" for at the crank).. There's no "better"... its about "better for YOU".

2000dc2

great thread, i am in a similar boat as the OP but i will pm for my needs

Gaspari

I knew id get a great response from theshodan but now that you know my goals shodan, what do you recommend

anavrin

yeah same here in the same boat gaspari....i think iam going to end up getting a 35 for myself

Gaspari

Oh, and I got 1000s and walbro 255

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Will PM individually. You'll hear from me.

Gaspari

Cool

Schister66

This thread has been added to the Forced Induction FAQ under the heading Ball Bearing vs Journal Bearing so that others may reference this information later. Please try to keep irrelevant comments at bay as they will most likely get deleted in order to streamline this thread

Professor_X

good info here

Gaspari

Did ht just jack my thread wtf??

95skunkedgsr

its not that your thread was jacked ... you should acualy be proud that you started a thread that led to an acualy tech debate about something that ppl can go to for referance and choice making..

instead of the normal thread that gose what turbo should i get dawg that when i hit vtack mad loud yo it gose ppppppssshhhhhhhttttt

Turbo-LS

iTrader: (4)

he just wnats a good direction to be pointed in.

The gt35r is basically the same thing your running the sc61. same comp housing and comp wheel with a little better design on the exhaust wheel which alows better spooling as stated above as well as ball bearing chra.

That being said dont bother, its not worth the extra money. do your self a favor and pick up a billet 6262 with a .63 hotside that will easily hit your power goals and spools well for journal bearing and has been a great turbo with the billet wheels they are able to realy get fancy with wheel designs. and these turbos are producing over 700whp in alot of setups Thats just my .02

Gaspari

Yea, well I just want something with a good power curve... and for my perticular setup I knew that their was a science to the stuff.. and I sure as heck don't know it... I don't have the money to be testing and swapping out parts... the good weathers almost over for the year, I wanna drive my car! But I would like to maximize my gains and pull the most potential out of the motor... that's all

tavp

Great thread