Black R

Late reply, but literally -1mm offset. Negative one millimeter.

Stinkycheezmonky

I wish I knew this over the summer, we could've played around with a few things. First things first: experimenting on old, hard tires will probably get you nowhere. It'll be really difficult to get consistent results on inconsistent rubber. We both know this, but it is REALLY a big deal when you finally get that good meat under the car and feel it.

redzcstandardhatch

you know how i have to roll. when i finally got my r6's underneath the car on the last day of the year, i was shocked how much better the car was.

pushing the old 195 RA1s this year was a good thing for me, i'm convinced of it. consistency wasnt a problem when they were hot, seriously. very very consistent, right up until they were corded.

this track-day thing is so fun. i cant wait for january. (hoping to do an event at sebring)

Black R

Well I got an alignment bc my toe was way off.

Once that was corrected, I got it all sorted out.

I forgot to ask for a printout, but off the top of my head:

Camber* -2.5 deg front, -1.9 rear

Toe* .01 front and .16 rear

Caster* 4deg

Ride height* 4.5" to front jacking points, 5" to rear.

This is with the jimfab bars shortened as much as possible while still retaining the jamb nuts.

And I'm using the stock upper A-arms on the correct sides.

The next time I change anything, I'll swap upper A-arms and see how much more caster that will net me.

Future plans include shorter front knuckles, new tie rod ends, and possibly quicker steering rack.

* It bears mentioning that my track is 4" wider (front and rear) than stock.

KIWI

AVAILABLE JANUARY 1 2011 EF/CRX/Civic Upper Control Arms

We will have the very latest HARDRACE - Exclusive (Kiwi Signature Series) Upper Control Arms/ Camber Kit with our unique Sealed/lubricated Offset Bronze Bushings. Race Tested and Proven.
These kits are designed to give maximum Camber adjustment, they wont slip and give 3 degrees or more Caster with minimum bump steer.

See: www.specialprojectsms.com/New Products.
EG/DC2 Available now.

Kiwi

ginsu2k

All of this talk about swapping upper control arms and nobody mentions bump steer? Wow.

Well, do it for yourself and learn why its a bad idea!

meb58

More grip mid turn? Increase front track width. You will have to adjust camber accordingly and perhaps bump up spring rates a hair (if you have an SLA front end), but unless the increase is huge I wouldn't worry about it.

Black R

I really haven't felt any negative bump steer effects since maxxing out the caster on my EF.

However, I haven't touched the upper A-arms yet.

unusual71

I offset my bushings and swapped upper a-arms on my 2000 civic coupe. i calculated about 5-5.5* caster but this was never measured. This is a car that mainly sees street use. I only got to push the car REALLY hard once, although I go nuts on off ramps quite frequently
my impression, bump steer on rough off ramps will try and kill you, but my car is setup to be fairly loose in the back, however i feel that the added caster and resulting bump steer took away a bit of front end predictability. That said i had no problem saving the car anytime the back stepped out.
smooth off ramps/cloverleafs however, felt incredible. im not sure how hard everyone else is pushing here so its a little subjective, and im not sure if the US ramps have larger or tighter radius, but in the 100-110 km/h range the car feels very stable.

uneven road surfaces pull you all over the place, although im a pretty buff person so it was never a problem, but i would NEVER let anyone else drive my car anywhere there are curbs lol
that said, when i was really pushing the car through the mountains in the 100-160km/h range it felt like i was on rails and the car was incredibly predictable. it felt like the car would go wherever i pointed it and turn in was actually really good.
high speed straight line stability is also amazing
bottom line, for autocross i would think that it comes down more to personal preference on feel and that 1 or 2 degrees either way on caster won't in itself actually make the car faster, but if the driver likes the feel better times will probably reduce as a result.

Fo-Do Fanatic

When you guys swapped your front UCA's from side to side did it put the wheels towards the back of the car or the front? I'm having a caster issue and I think this may be it.

unusual71

the wheel will only move back millimeters, Caster is the angle that the centerline of the front knuckle makes with an imaginary vertical line. moving the upper ball joint rearward moves the top mounting point of the knuckle back, increasing the caster angle

Battle2.0Eg

This is awesome...Almost looks like a Lancia hillclimb car

Jaker

Why shorter knuckles? Is there some sort of geometry issue you're trying to address?

I'll be selling my Quaife equipped EF rack soon. Interested?

Black R

Well I'm trying to go lower by maybe another 1" to get about as low as the sts ef's out there...

A shorter front knuckle would reduce unsprung weight if made from chromoly, and give me more travel until the upper A-arms contact the underside of the shock towers.
I'm using itr front knuckles currently, so the geometry isn't quite what it's supposed to be for an ef...

And yes, please sell me your quaife rack!

Fo-Do Fanatic

I'd honestly just run DA knuckles. I did it and I'll never turn back. Along with the DA rear discs and knuckles I did the brake booster and master swap as well. let me tell you that my car stops SO much better. You can always get drop forks too.

89civicdx

hello wouldnt swapping ef upper arms give you - caster as in tilt the knuckle forward

Black R

I'm actually running itr front knuckles and brakes...
It wasn't pertinent to this topic though, so I didn't mention it.
I wouldn't mind running drop forks, but that won't help with the fact that my knuckles are 1" too long.

89civicdx

heres a pic of ef upper arms





this is a eg(i think) upper arm i dunno if its left or right...i'm guessing left

unusual71

wow the ek upper arms are much similar left to right than these ones.

ginsu2k

From the pics it looks like the upper ball joint location has moved about 3 inches.

Assuming a Knuckle Length of 16" from lower to upper ball joint.

tan theta = opposite/adjacent

theta = arctan(3/16)

theta = 11.7 degrees?!

That's an f**ing huge change in caster, even if I'm off by a couple inches on the knuckle length.

Drive carefully.

unusual71

I think that the angle of the arms in the pictures exaggerates the actual shift, but it could just be the picture

89civicdx

^the arms are offset that much ,the eg/ek arms must be the opposite of these (angled forward) for people to be swapping them to get + caster.

usdm_ED7

whats stock caster on EF's? i just drive mine for street use and my caster is off a tad bit

Front Left Front RIght
4.1* 4.9*

recently replaced upper control arm, inner and outer end links, and lower balljoint.

is this anything i should worry about?

Black R

For the ef:

OEM Suspensio n measureme nts:

Caster:* * * * 3.0 +/- 1

Camber:* F* *0.0 +/- 1
* * * * * * * R -0.3 +/- 1

Toe:* * * *F* *0.0 +/- 3
* * * * * * *R* *0.2 +/- 2

Front Track 57.1"
Rear Track 57.3"

This is on stock 185/60/14

* thanks to bus driver j for the specs.

JHall250

One thing to remember when adding caster, the toe curve changes. Honda intentionally built toe out in bump on the front suspension to dull aggressive movements of the steering for things like quick lane changes to avoid that "animal" in the road that always seems to crash people: This is known by most as bump steer. When you move add more positive caster the radius rod is bought up higher which makes the cars suspension closer to toe in during compression, so flipping the arms actually decreases intentional bump steer. On my EK flipping the arms took caster from .5* to 2.5* and decreased toe in during suspension compression.

Cliff notes
More caster=more toe in during compression
Stock=toe out during compression
swapped control arms=less toe out (bump steer) during compression

Another side note: 88 front knuckles and rear trailing arms are different than all other civic/integra knuckles/trailing arms. The 88 civic's have the most ideal road racing suspension in regards to toe curves. Both front and rear were designed to have minimal bump steer which was changed in 89 because Honda felt it was "too unsafe" which to us translates into too good for the public.