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Old 07-07-2010, 06:52 AM   #1
double b from wv
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Default '91 accord f22a1 - no bottom end power (UPDATE: now wont stay running)

alright, i put my 91 accord lx back on the road this week, and old problems are back to the front burner. as far as i know, the car is basically stock, except for the cold air intake i put on it (filter is clean). it has the f22a1 and a 4 spd auto trans. its not throwing any engine code lights that i can tell.

the problem is that it 'bogs down' when you take off from a stop, or try to accelerate from low speed/rpm. if you're at a stop, and you give it more than a touch of throttle, it just stumbles, and creeps until it winds up to around 2-2.5k on the tach (with just a touch, it still creeps, but not quite as bad). if you're already moving at low rpm (say 35 mph in 4th gear) it doesnt want to accelerate w/o downshifting from 4th to 3rd. but it runs fine once the rmp's are up. it just has no torque until it gets wound up. ive been having to run it in 3rd gear in town just to make it more drivable.

this has been a problem since i first bought the car years ago, but its been parked for a few years, so i havent messed w/ it. but i have tried a few things...

- replaced timing belt and made sure timing was correct.
- replaced the pcv valve
- cut out the cat. converter (no emissions tests in WV!!)
- replaced the fuel feed lines (from the pump to the fuel filter)
- replaced fuel filter
- drained gas tank
- i run 89 octane instead of regular 87
- new plugs, wires, dist. cap, and ignition module
- siphoned out half (most i could) of the trans fluid and refilled with new

none of this has seemed to help though. one thing i noticed the other day was that the new pcv valve still looks brand-new-clean inside... like its not sucking. i am going to go out in a minute and see if there is suction at the valve.

any ideas other than that? someone suggested that the valves may need adjusted. other than that though, the firing components are new, the fuel components are new, and the exhaust definitely isnt clogged.

Last edited by double b from wv; 08-17-2010 at 12:29 PM. Reason: update
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Old 07-11-2010, 11:17 PM   #2
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Default Re: '91 accord f22a1 - no bottem end power?

i found the rubber hose that runs from the pcv valve to the throttle body area was deteriorated, and collapsed towards the TB end of it. i put some new line on it, and it seemed to help a good bit, but its still pretty gutless below 2k (worse than a normal f22), and seems to still bog a bit on rapid acceleration. i only drove it a few miles across town though, so i couldnt tell how much better it is, but i could tell that it still wasnt quite right. any other ideas?
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Old 07-11-2010, 11:34 PM   #3
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Default Re: '91 accord f22a1 - no bottem end power?

You could just have a dog of a motor man, hate to say it but I think you have a lot of work ahead of you. Get the motor warmed up and make sure its at the proper idle, see what the voltage is on the MAP sensor going back to the ECM, it needs to be just a hair under 1 Volt DC, anything else, you need a valve adjustment. Probably lots more though, this is a start.
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Old 07-12-2010, 12:07 AM   #4
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Default Re: '91 accord f22a1 - no bottem end power?

Have you looked at or eliminated the EGR valve/system as the cause of your problems?
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:57 PM   #5
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Default Re: '91 accord f22a1 - no bottem end power?

well, i dont expect much out of the motor... i know its only rated at something like 125hp when new, and this one has about 214k. however, i've had my fair share of ragged out engines, and this is different. plus ive know a few people with high mileage accords and civics, and none of them have been this damn gutless!

the best way i can describe what happens would be that it seems like its either choking or flooding itself out when you try to demand any torque what-so-ever from it at less than ~2k rpm, regardless of the gear. when this is happening, the more throttle you give it, the more it bogs and loses power. i've even had it cut flat out on me until i let off the throttle a time or two! say you stop at a light, and its like a 1 or 2% grade. when you go to take off, the car will barely pull itself up the hill. unless its basically floored, the more pedal you give it, the louder the 'bogging' sound gets, the slower it moves, and after a while of stop-n-go driving, i smell a weird odor from the engine bay area. what i've dubbed the 'old honda smell' doesnt smell like gas fumes, burning oil, exhaust... i cant really describe it. but anyway, once it pull itself to 2k or so, it runs as expected (still not much power, but it will move itself down the road well enough).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i havent really done much beyond what i listed in post #1, other than swapping out that old pcv vac. line. the idle is fine. it fast-idles for about a minutes, then cuts down to around 550 w/o running any accessories or lights.

i will have to take a look at the MAP senor. what do you mean by 'back to the ECM'? just check the wire and make sure it looks okay, or what? any other sensors that could be an issue, but not throw a code?

havent looked at EGR either. what to look for? i dont really want to just go tearing stuff out if i dont have too. are there any down sides to doing away with it? are there any ways i could trouble shoot it to see if removing it would make a difference?

so anyway, if anyone has any more ideas, throw 'em out. i work out of town, and all my tools are there too. so right now im just trying to collect ideas and info, then i can try some things later in the week when i get off of work and am stuck away from home with nothing better to do!

thanks
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Old 07-13-2010, 04:38 AM   #6
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Default Re: '91 accord f22a1 - no bottem end power?

I wasn’t suggesting doing away with your EGR, I was just asking if you had given any consideration to your problems being EGR related. Your EGR valve should be closed at idle and at the higher rpms and is open to various degrees in between. If you’re getting to much EGR flow at the lower rpms it will certainly affect your low-end performance. One easy thing you could try is to disconnect and plug the vacuum hose going to the EGR valve. Drive your car around the block and see if it makes any difference. If it doesn’t then most likely your problems are in another area.
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Old 07-13-2010, 05:08 AM   #7
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Default Re: '91 accord f22a1 - no bottem end power?

Sounds like you need to get a fuel pressure AND volume test done while driving. You also can watch the O2 sensor response while accellerating, this may be easier. I bet you are leaning out. A snap throttle test on an oscilloscope will show your problem but the guy will need good experience reading spark on the scope.
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Old 07-15-2010, 12:17 PM   #8
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Default Re: '91 accord f22a1 - no bottem end power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cctgene View Post
I wasn’t suggesting doing away with your EGR, I was just asking if you had given any consideration to your problems being EGR related. Your EGR valve should be closed at idle and at the higher rpms and is open to various degrees in between. If you’re getting to much EGR flow at the lower rpms it will certainly affect your low-end performance. One easy thing you could try is to disconnect and plug the vacuum hose going to the EGR valve. Drive your car around the block and see if it makes any difference. If it doesn’t then most likely your problems are in another area.
alright, i'm not familiar with what exactly and egr is/does, but i'll give that a shot this week. i'll have to look in the service manual and find which vac. line it is. would that possibly generate the strange odor? if it seems like the problem, what would i need to do to fix it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane_in_Japan View Post
Sounds like you need to get a fuel pressure AND volume test done while driving. You also can watch the O2 sensor response while accellerating, this may be easier. I bet you are leaning out. A snap throttle test on an oscilloscope will show your problem but the guy will need good experience reading spark on the scope.
i dont have an oscilloscope... any way i can use a multi-meter instead?

as for fuel pressure and volume, it seems fine. once the car gets up to 2k or so, it runs pretty good. im no expert, but if it were a fuel delivery problem, wouldnt it be more prevalent at higher rpm, instead of the opposite? and keep in mind, the fuel delivery lines are brand new from the top of the pump to the fuel filter under the hood (including the filter itself). and when i connected the fuel pipe to the fuel feed line, it had enough pressure to leak around the fitting, through teflon tape, and i had to tighten it more to get it to seal. so it seems like the pump is working right, and the lines and filter are new. if its a fuel problem, i would guess it would be between the filter and engine (injectors maybe?).

the O2 sensor seems plausible. the only issue with that is that i've owned this car for around 6 years now. this problem i speak of has been an issue since i bought it. its not throwing a code for the sensor. i know they can start going bad, and cause problems, without actually throwing a code at first. but i would think that over 6 years, if the sensor was going bad, it would have done so by now and thrown a code. that is of course, if logic prevails.

anyway, ill look into the egr thing first. it just seems more likely to me. but if that doesnt pan out, ill turn my attention toward the fuel and O2 sensor... if there is anything i can do myself to troubleshoot it. i mean, how am i supposed to monitor the O2 sensor while im driving? i have mechanics tools, a volt meter, laptop... but no oscilloscope or anything like that.
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Old 07-15-2010, 12:21 PM   #9
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Default Re: '91 accord f22a1 - no bottem end power?

oh yeah, in the past couple of days it has been starting hard. ive been having to crank on it a few revolutions for it to fire up, and then its been missing a bit until you rev it up a bit, or it just smooths out on its own after a few seconds.

the plugs and wires were changed a few years ago, but only driven on for a few months before i parked it. im thinking that i should pull the plugs, clean them off, check the gaps, and maybe replace if needed.

i dont think this is related to the other issue, but i just though id mention it just in case.
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Old 07-29-2010, 02:39 PM   #10
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Default Re: '91 accord f22a1 - no bottem end power?

alright, im back!

after reading in the service manual about how to troubleshoot the egr system, i found that i needed a vacuum pump to test out the lines. i dont have one, or $50 to buy one (maybe i could rent one though), so i just pulled the line at the egr valve and felt for suction w/ my finger, as i worked the throttle. i know, not the most detailed info gained from doing that, but i did determine that there was a change in vacuum between idle, and various ranges through the rpm range. its a ballpark figure at best, but since it seemed 'ok', i went ahead and turned my attention elsewhere in the system.

so i started looking into cleaning out the valve itself when i stumbled upon the following how-to article on cleaning the egr ports in the intake:

http://home.comcast.net/~em-engineering/T2T013.pdf

so i pulled the egr valve off and cleaned it out w/ some carb/choke cleaner and a small flathead (to chip away the carbon buildup). then i went and bought a small slide hammer so i could try cleaning the ports also. i drilled holes in a couple of the easy-to-access ones, but the screw kept pulling out before the plug came loose. so at this point im kind of at a hault with that. i was thinking about just drilling them out and buying new ones, or just drilling small holes and filling them in, as mentioned in the article. anyone have any thoughs about this???

anyway, after cleaning and re-fitting the egr valve, i drove it a few blocks and it seems to be running better, but i think it still needs the ports cleaned out on the intake as well. the valve was pretty much clogged off with carbon, so id say the rest is pretty bad too.

================================================== ===========================

other than that, the hard starting is getting terrible, but it comes and goes. ususally it starts pretty well the first time of the day, but once its ran and sat for a few minutes, it usually hard to start from there on out. i pulled the plugs and they didnt look bad at all. but i cleaned them off, re-checked the gaps, and put them back in. the dist. cap and all look fine, but i cleaned the points and button anyway. wires are fine. so im thinking that i'll probably run some seafoam through it next time i fill up. any ideas on this one?

Last edited by double b from wv; 07-29-2010 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 07-29-2010, 06:52 PM   #11
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Default Re: '91 accord f22a1 - no bottem end power?

Kall me crazy, but have you checked the timing? Hard start, no ***** till high revs, sounds lyk a skipped belt maybe. Just a thought...
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Old 07-30-2010, 06:02 AM   #12
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Default Re: '91 accord f22a1 - no bottem end power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Accordin2me View Post
Kall me crazy, but have you checked the timing? Hard start, no ***** till high revs, sounds lyk a skipped belt maybe. Just a thought...
you're CRAZY!!!! (j/k... you told me to do it!)

yeah i checked timing... it was one of my first thoughts too. if you read the original post, or one of the first ones anyway, i list what i've looked at.

i took the car for a longer drive last night. the egr cleaning did help out a good bit, but its still doesnt act 100%. im pretty sure the ports on the intake need cleaned also.

the hard starting comes and goes. it only began a week or two ago. some times its fires right up and idles smooth. other times you have to key the hell out of it, and floor it, then it will spit & sputter until it hits about 2k on the tach. then it catches all 4 and runs smooth. ive listed what i've looked at in the last couple posts.

thanks for the thought though.
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Old 07-30-2010, 07:06 AM   #13
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Default Re: '91 accord f22a1 - no bottem end power?

Check out the #1 sensor and TDC sensor inside of the distributor. Also, make sure that the distro is not throwing fine metal shavings onto those sensors. When the bearings in the distro start to go, they cover those sensors with metal shaving and they slowly get worse since they cannot read anymore - eventually they will throw a code, but not until they are nearly unusable (worse than what you are describing). Take off the cap, rotor and plastic guard thingy and check the inside for powdery dust. If there is any, clean the crap out of the distro with some carb or brake cleaner. If that clears up your problem, then plan on a new distro in the next 2-3K miles since it will just get worse and your cleaning will be temporary at best.

Good luck.
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:02 PM   #14
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Default Re: '91 accord f22a1 - no bottem end power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdadams12 View Post
Check out the #1 sensor and TDC sensor inside of the distributor. Also, make sure that the distro is not throwing fine metal shavings onto those sensors. When the bearings in the distro start to go, they cover those sensors with metal shaving and they slowly get worse since they cannot read anymore - eventually they will throw a code, but not until they are nearly unusable (worse than what you are describing). Take off the cap, rotor and plastic guard thingy and check the inside for powdery dust. If there is any, clean the crap out of the distro with some carb or brake cleaner. If that clears up your problem, then plan on a new distro in the next 2-3K miles since it will just get worse and your cleaning will be temporary at best.

Good luck.
funny... i just had the cap off yesterday to check the points & rotor. there were metal shavings on the points (real fine shavings, but not a lot), but i didnt notice any on the plastic cover or anything else. i cleaned off all the shavings in the cap. i just chalked it up to the cap & rotor button being newer, and it being natural wear of the points/rotor.

are just a few shavings indicative of the problem you describe, or should there be a lot of them before i need to be concerned?

can i test the sensors w/ a multimeter?

while i had the cap off though, i also noticed that there is fresh(er) oil on the side of the engine, beneath the distributor cap. there was also some more inside the cap, but not much. my though was that the cam seals are going bad. sound right? or is there a common leak in that area i should check? (for instance, 1st gen neons have a sensor on the back of the block that is known to leak pretty bad. teflon tape fixes)
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Old 08-17-2010, 04:15 AM   #15
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Default Now Wont Stay Running

alright, im back with new developements. over the past couple weeks, ive cleaned out the egr intake runners (all 6 of them), put in new-new spark plugs (ngk g-power), pulled the plug wires and hit with emery cloth to make sure contacts were clean, put on a new ignition coil, and replaced the fuel injector seals (one was leaking). after all that, the car seems to run worse than ever, most of the time!! has still been hard starting and running with a miss and little power most of the time. the problem comes and goes, but is present most of the time.

i think that i finally caught a break though, kind of. i took it to a friends place over the weekend, and when i went to leave that night, the damn thing would not stay running... or really run at all for that matter. it would start up with a horrible miss, and no matter what amount of throttle you gave it, it would not fire smoothly or rev above 1 grand or so. BUT, it did finally throw a CEL for me. i pulled the code and got a #5 (map sensor).

from what ive read though, these sensors are "solid state", and not very likely to go out. usually a code 5 is due to a problem with either the electrical connections or the vacuum lines. is this accurate?

since i dont have my multi-meter on hand, i went to another friend and borrowed his. today im going over to test the harness and the map sensor itself.

also going to look over the vacuum lines. i dont have a test kit for the vacuum though, so if the sensor and wires check out okay, and i dont see anything wrong with the vac lines, i will probably go buy a test kit for them.... after i make sure its not just a blockage in the line.

so i am looking online, and ive found a couple different ones. the cheaper one looks like you would have to have the car running for it to pull a test, no? while the other one has a hand pump, so i could pressurize the lines w/o the car running, correct? i would probably want to go with the 2nd one, wouldnt you say? its almost 2x as much as the other, but it looks like its made a hell of a lot better, and what good is a troubleshooting tool if the car has to run to troubleshoot it?!

let me know what you think. if all checks out with the electrical connections, the sensor, and the vac lines, im going to reset the computer and see if it'll run or throw a code again. im hoping its a vac line or short though, cause the cheapest map sensor i can find is nearly $200. plus ive had to replace a couple rubber lines here and there, so im hoping they just deteriorated.

Last edited by double b from wv; 08-17-2010 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 08-17-2010, 11:26 AM   #16
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Default Now Wont Stay Running

okay, i cleared the codes and the car starts barely. if cold, it will fast idle okay, but once it goes down to regular idle, it get real rough and barely stays running.. if it stays running at all. if its kind of warm, it will run and idle just a little high, but then start missing and stuff like after a fast idle. any gas you give it stalls it further. however, sometimes you can feather the gas (1/2 pedal rapidly) and it will eventually pick up and smooth out above 2 grand. other times you can feather it and it just spits and backfires. after giving it any gas, it drops below idle and nearly stalls, or it does stall.

when the key is on 'run', there is a humming/whining from around the battery area, at the end of the CAI filter. i can pull the 10amp fuse labeled "ECU" (under hood box) and the sound stops. put the fuse back in and i hear a few clicks (like solenoids) and the noise comes back.

i tried testing the MAP sensor too. i probed it at the connector and it is providing 3v, like the book calls for, so it shouldnt be the problem (whew). i cant really test the vacuum because the car wont run right. im thinking that i might go buy a vac test kit with the pump and pump the lines up to see if they hold pressure. the lines dont look that bad at all though, so i dont see where there would be a problem there.

so far, the engine light has not come back on. when i stick the paper clip in the blue test jumper and turn the key on, the light just stays lit. if i turn the key on w/o the jumper, its on for 2 sec and then goes off.

any ideas? i was thinking about the tdc, cps, and others in the distributor, but there's no light for them. anyone know the readouts for them so i can test with the meter?

Last edited by double b from wv; 08-17-2010 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 08-17-2010, 12:22 PM   #17
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Default Now Wont Stay Running

HERES THE VIDEO



ive also found the procedure for checking the TDC/etc sensor.

something else i forgot to mention though, i see a sensor right below the distributor that looks broken. i can grab the 'stem' of it and wiggle it around. the base is securely screwed into the head though. it looks like a coolant temp sensor, and from the diagram in my book, i looks like its in that area. can someone confirm please? if so, anyone know how to test it? the book doesnt say what page its on, and i cant find it (but will keep looking).

(ITS THE ONE WITH THE RED WIRE GOING TO IT)




the other day the car began getting warm on me while setting in the drive thru, and the fan has been kicking on a lot after i turn the car off. can a CTS make the car not start and run right?

can anyone name the oil leak? distributor seal?
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Old 08-17-2010, 05:54 PM   #18
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Default Re: '91 accord f22a1 - no bottem end power?

The green sensor is a coolant temp sensor. The black sensor - IDK.

I would check your ignition timing. Near the engine label there is a rubber plug you can pull. I know to NOT use the white mark [TDC] but to use the RED mark, for timing. If you use the white mark, you will retard the timing, and it will be gutless.
If you look at the hold-down bolt marks on the distributor, you can see that *someone* moved the distributor from where it was. Without going through the geometry in my mind totally, I think it was moved in the 'retard' direction.
It should not need to be moved unless internal parts have been replaced.
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Old 08-17-2010, 07:00 PM   #19
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Default Re: '91 accord f22a1 - no bottem end power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomw0 View Post
The green sensor is a coolant temp sensor. The black sensor - IDK.

I would check your ignition timing. Near the engine label there is a rubber plug you can pull. I know to NOT use the white mark [TDC] but to use the RED mark, for timing. If you use the white mark, you will retard the timing, and it will be gutless.
If you look at the hold-down bolt marks on the distributor, you can see that *someone* moved the distributor from where it was. Without going through the geometry in my mind totally, I think it was moved in the 'retard' direction.
It should not need to be moved unless internal parts have been replaced.
tom
thanks. i realized that the green was cts when i pulled up a pic of the sensor on autozone site (or one of them). any idea what that yellow one back there is? and the O2-looking sensor that's 'broke'? anyone?

i dont have a timing light, but a few years ago, i put a new t-belt on it. i know its aligned right. the distributor cap, idk who moved it, but good eye, because it does look like someone's messed with it. it looks full advanced.
Click the image to open in full size.
must have been that way when i bought the thing way back when... its always had a power problem. i bought it off some guy, but he had bought it off some chick just to flip for a few extra bucks. its hard to tell what someone along the line messed with.

even though it always had the power issue, it was always very reliable until i put it back on the road this summer. until now (minus the t-belt breaking) it has never left me stranded. so basically, im sure the timing and distributor could use looked at, but i dont think that is the cause of it suddenly not running. thanks for spotting that though!

EDIT: oh yeah, i looked at the broken sensor thing some more after i posted last time, and from what i can tell, the wires dont plug into it. its kind of like an O2 sensor, in that the leads are embedded in the sensor. but the wires run into that ball of wires beneath the distributor, where the distro wires and nearby senors come out of. i didnt see any way to unplug the thing. i didnt unravel the wires and trace them back, but i figure that if it was something that was 'normal' to change, they would have made it with a plug in like all the other sensors. so idk. id like to know though.
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Old 08-17-2010, 07:57 PM   #20
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Default Re: Now Wont Stay Running

i think (hope) i've figured out the problem!!

like i mentioned before, there was the whining/buzzing noise coming from the battery and intake filter area. later on i was messing with the control box some more, and i took the CAI off. when i switched the key on, i heard 'the sound' coming from inside the throttle body! i was like, "WTF!?" i went through unplugging nearby sensors one at a time, and when i unplugged the electronic air control valve (EACV), the noise stopped. plug it back in and the noise immediately starts back up. sounds like the valve, or whatever's in there, is immediately going all the way open or closed, then whining when its still getting current but cant move. (my ignorant guess)

so i left it unplugged and the car runs a little bit better, but only at idle. if you even touch the gas, the car stalls immediately. so i started checking the eacv, and everything on it seemed to check out (w/ key off: resistance between 5-8 ohms between the two prongs, and no continuity between either prong and body ground... thank god, new one's like $250).

however, the car itself failed the next test. with the key ON, there IS battery voltage between the + and - on the eacv harness connector, and there shouldn't be. so the next step, which i will do tomorrow, is to unplug the A connector from the ECU and test for battery voltage on the other end of the harness, between the YEL/BLK (+) and the BLK/BLU (-). if there IS voltage present, there is a short in the wire somewhere. if there IS NOT voltage, i need to get a new computer and try that. the procedure ends there, so if it comes to a new computer, and that doesnt work either... insurance fraud?

im really, really hoping that there is a short in the wire. im pretty handy with that type of thing, and i already have all the stuff i would need to fix it here at my house. plus the computer wont come cheap, if it comes to that. after finding the short (if it is one), i got to thinking. i replaced the injector seals less than a week ago, and i had the fuel injector harness rail-thing moved to the side. the eacv harness runs through there as well, so if there was a brittle wire in the grommet, it would make sense that it broke when i bent the wires. my fingers are crossed.

the only concern is that the procedure is for if the CEL is on and giving a code 14. if i reset the ECU, then start the car and let it 'run' (which usually consists of dying and restarting several times to get barely warm... fans never came on all day, but it never got up to temp) the CEL never came back on at all. not for the map, not for the eacv. however, if i unplug the eacv, the light comes on right away. maybe its just not getting hot enough to trigger a light? seems odd. the book says that if there is an idle problem (i have more than that), to troubleshoot a laundry list of other stuff, then swap the computer if nothing else helps. idk. the short cant be good, so ill focus there for now i guess. puzzling though.
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if it does come down to the computer, would you guys recommend that i just get another one of whatever is in it now (what is in it now?), or is there a better one i should look into? im seriously thinking about getting a h22a long block in the near future, dropping it in w/ my auto trans for now, and just being done with this old f22. so if there is a different one that would simplify that, and isnt an arm and a leg more than the current, i would be interested. (it seems to me that i read about a p28(?) or something that would save running a wire or two to the vtec solenoid, or something related. not running two wires isnt worth much to me though, unless there were other benefits too.)
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Old 08-18-2010, 12:12 AM   #21
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Default Re: '91 accord f22a1 - no bottem end power?

Bro, I would get a timing light, got mine dirt cheap from Walmart, and fix that timing. Timing can cause a lot of problems, even bad idling and horrible low end power. Make sure you take a paper clip and short the blue connector down by the passenger kick board before you start the car, then set the timing with the timing light, then turn the car off, remove the paper clip and go from there. You will actually hear, not only see with the timing light, the timing is in the correct spot because the car will run a lot better when it's in the perfect position. Then just make a couple marks around the bolts and the housing and if you ever take the dizzy off for any reason you can easily put it back on without even needing a timing light.
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Old 08-18-2010, 06:38 AM   #22
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Default Re: '91 accord f22a1 - no bottem end power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by holmesnmanny View Post
Bro, I would get a timing light, got mine dirt cheap from Walmart, and fix that timing. Timing can cause a lot of problems, even bad idling and horrible low end power. Make sure you take a paper clip and short the blue connector down by the passenger kick board before you start the car, then set the timing with the timing light, then turn the car off, remove the paper clip and go from there. You will actually hear, not only see with the timing light, the timing is in the correct spot because the car will run a lot better when it's in the perfect position. Then just make a couple marks around the bolts and the housing and if you ever take the dizzy off for any reason you can easily put it back on without even needing a timing light.
i hear you man, and i will re-time it eventually, now that i'm aware of it. i used to have a light back in the day when i had the 91 isuzu trooper, but its been lost in the shuffle since then. more recently, none of my other vehicles have needed one cause they all had coil packs instead of distro. i guess if im planning on keeping this car around, it wouldnt hurt to get a new one.

now, the real problem with timing right now it is that it wont really run well enough to time it, i dont think. (ill take a new video today if i remember, to show the updates). plus, unless the distributor bolts are loose and it moved on its own recently (im gonna examine today, but still doesnt explain the EACV issue), it has been in that position for years, literally. the car was always reliable before i put it back on the road this summer. always started on first key, idled well, just lacked ***** at low rpm. personally, i think it had a lot to do with the egr being clogged up, the cat being clogged up, and now i see that the timing is advanced.

anyway, re-timing is officially on the list. just not on the top of the list just yet.
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Old 08-18-2010, 10:56 AM   #23
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Default Re: '91 accord f22a1 - no bottem end power?

alright, i pulled the computer and tested the harness. the harness does have voltage between the EACV + and - lines, down at the A-connector on the ECU. according to the book, that's not supposed to be there, so i need to repair the short in the line. im relieved.

it makes sense though because i changed those injector seals last week, and shortly after it broke down. my guess right now is that there is a break in the engine bay because i had to move those wires to pull the fuel rail. im about to start tearing into the grommet to see if i can find anything. worse comes to worse, ill just snip both lines on each end and solder/heatshrink a new piece in place.

as for the computer, it looks exceptionally clean, especially for being in the floor area under carpet for 20 years. there is a little rust on the mounting bracket, but only one exposed side. just now creeping around the sides, but hasnt reached the computer side of it yet. i think ill sand it down real fast and shoot it with some spray paint/primer.
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Old 08-18-2010, 01:56 PM   #24
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Default Re: '91 accord f22a1 - no bottem end power?

You can do static timing by lining up the marks, turning the key to 'on', and then moving the distributor 'against the rotation' of the camshaft ... i.e. back towards the windshield. When the spark plug fires, you'll hear a 'bzzt' or a 'tic'. That is where the gizzards would have fired the plug as the cam rotated into position inside the distributor breaking the current flow through the coil, causing it to fire.
IF YOU DO THIS WITH THE PLUG WIRES INSTALLED ON THE PLUGS THE ENGINE MAY START BEWARE
If you do the static check, and the marks don't line up, it is possible that the camshaft is one tooth off, and thus not allowing more advance. That would also explain the bogging and gutlessness. My wife's friend has a 93 2.2l auto sedan that moves pretty well from a stop, so there is definitely something wrong.
I would see if there was any more adjustment in the advance direction, and just move the distributor to see if it improved as a test, and if it did, I'd check the cam timing marks one more time.
You could pull the lockdown bolt on the distributor, and advance the timing. If it ran better, and would actually idle, you'd know that was the direction to look into further...
tom

p.s. If the EACV is dirty, it may be buzzing because it cannot move. Have you tried to clean it? I don't know your particular model, but most of the idle air control valves use a 'duty cycle' to determine how much air is bypassed around the throttle plate. That will cause a buzzing, though it is generally covered up by engine noise. If gummed up, it could cause more noise trying to break itself free.

Last edited by tomw0; 08-18-2010 at 02:07 PM. Reason: idle
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Old 08-18-2010, 09:35 PM   #25
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Default Re: '91 accord f22a1 - no bottem end power?

tomw0 just before me has good info, when I first started reading whats on this page and you were saying the car ran fine until you let it sit for several minutes I was thinking that you were having whats called a Hot Soak problem, such as the fuel injectors leaking, you then stated that it would clear up and run better, that would also be leaking injectors dripping liquid drops into the cylinder then after a little running it would burn all that out and the engine would run better.

Then you pulled on the harness and seemed to make things worse so you may want to dig into the harness like you are thinking and look close at the EACV and the injector wires, you seem to be on the right track.

Ohm testing the sensors inside the distributor is an ok test but an oscilloscope is much better but it is a fact that these sensors work pretty good until they are almost dead. The MAP sensor at a good clean idle will put out just a hair under 1 Volt back to the computer if the valves are adjusted good so if you can get it to idle warm, you look for 1 VDC or a hair under is best. Like you said, they are practically bullet proof.

Most of the time, a single wire water temp sensor is for the gauge but it could be a fan switch, I dont have a diagram handy right now. ECT could also cause your problems if the computer thinks the ECT sensor is reading -40C and feeding the engine too much fuel for a warm day, it will not throw a code if it is working although working out of range, same with the MAP and many other sensors. As you know the circuit pretty much has to be open or shorted to throw a code. Dont trust codes thought, they are only a guide, get the code, find the sensor that goes with it then test the sensor by the book.

You have mentioned an O2 sensor a couple of times, the O2 sensor is in the exhaust port before the catalytic convertor so not sure where you are looking at that. The oil leak is popular around the outer distributor oring, 1 or 2 orings depending on the style of dizzy, there is an internal seal but it is a real job to change it and you have to find a kit to do the job on the internet, its not a normal seal that you buy in the store. I am also wondering if all that oil could be interferring with the ECT also, clean all of that up and see if its coming from the valve cover gasket set or the dizzy shaft once you get up and running again.
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