Turbogixxer

This is very interesting. The base pull was done on the SAME day. Rob_ and I swapped the injectors to FIC bosch 900cc and just tuned the fuel. I was hoping for 3-5whp, rob did not think he would gain. The RCs were cleaned 5000 miles ago. The both were tuned to the best we could (fuel wise). The engine temp was the same. The intake temp was the same. We tried to keep everything the same.


This was all on neptune and E85.

Enjoy

mar778c

iTrader: (1)

Thank you for posting this results. Hopefully others will take heed.

00Red_SiR

That's impressive. Is it simply an enhanced spray pattern that gives them a power advantage like that?

Turbogixxer

Yes, and the control of the injector is a lot better.

88ED8

Nice!!!

92TypeR

Thanks for sharing!

Further gains could be seen with injector timing adjustment.

Are the Bosch 900cc the same family of injector as the ID725 and ID1000?

Turbogixxer

Yeah, with injector phasing, we could pick up more. I wanted a test of just changing the fuel.

Yes. The Fuel injector clinic 900cc is in the same family as the ID750/1000. It is argued what one is better or "correct". Info on the FIC: http://www.fuelinjectorclinic.com/injectors/honda.html

killerpenguin21

so basically rc injectors arent that good?

im not sure what i should take away from this since i run smaller injectors than you tested?

Turbogixxer

It is not that RCs are not good, they are old technology. With new injectors, you can see better driveability and most likely more power.

They make the newer bosch injectors in smaller sizes too. So you *could* gain more. He brought 900cc because he is going turbo later and has two kits of dry nitrous now.

mar778c

iTrader: (1)

I've only keep up with the ID stuff based on some dyno plots, talking to some tuners, and info from there website. The FIC and ID injectors are the same item but the IDs are tested and matched via dead time, response time, etc and they give you the battery compensation and injector pulse width data, etc. The process they go thru with ID is what makes them superior if the tuner knows how to take advantage of the information.

Turbogixxer

As what info they come with, they both come with dead times, injector flow sheets. I have ID1000s on my car. I do not know what FIC process of matching them, because they do not make it as public as ID does, so I can not answer that question. I have tuned a good amount of both ID and FIC. I have never tuned both on one car. I can email FIC on it and see what they have to say.

That was going to be my next test, but I will probably not make it public. I do not want the drama from it. That why I labeled the thread bosch 900cc, not FIC or ID.

92TypeR

For us N/A guys, it seems these would be the most likely option:

http://www.fuelinjectorclinic.com/cg...ey=IS115-0525H

mar778c

iTrader: (1)

Unfortunately, what you say is true and sad because the community would benefit from this info.

From what I've seen on simple rebuild all motor cars, the FIC/generic injector would probably be good enough. For turbo 450+ whp, I would use the IDs because of the matching process and plenty of examples of very high whp cars using them with great success.

d112crzy

Great post, sir.

Turbogixxer

I have made very good power on FIC 900cc. I just can not comment on how they match them up, because I do not know.

I try to make my tests as fair as possible. Like you said, it is sad. If a part works and it is cheaper, then it should be used. I am not saying either one is better, because I do not know. I just see too many loaded tests from biased sources.

Sleepy.Bear

Would anyone happen to have a picture of the different spray patterns?

killerpenguin21

ok i understand exactly now. good to know for my new basement project

Furyof4

Thank for for sharing this info.

mikesrex

do you have a graph of the A/F ratios for both of these pulls?

OH_1fstgsr

iTrader: (2)

I have a similar question to this.

If the spray pattern is improved for atomization shouldn't the dyno graph show the same/similar improvement everywhere?
Or is it improved slightly and as the air velocity increases the impact is more prevalent.
Just a thought.

92TypeR

I think port velocity plays a large role in this.

If you think about the power gains in terms of a % increase and not a constant, the difference will be less at lower HP levels. Add in an increasing gain as port velocity increases, and your dyno curve starts to resemble the OP's.

Simply adjusting injector timing plays a large role in power. This is a curve of one of the restricted 599cc FSAE motors I built. The six curves all have a different base injector timing. The timing values are noted in the subtitle for each run file, measured in * ATDC. Our engine dyno could only measure 7,000 RPM worth of data at 100 RPM step size, so these runs started at 7,000 RPM and ended at 14,000 RPM, but there were little to no gains below 7,000 RPM. You can see at higher RPM's, there is as much as a 10% increase in power. Think of gaining 20whp on a 200whp B-series simply by adjusting injector timing.

d112crzy

Does the red say 20 or 29? Hard to tell.

92TypeR

DTA20M29, each subtitle is located above the color identifier. The injector timing offset is in parentheses. eg: DTA20M29 (60deg) is the run file name, the (60deg) represents 60* ATDC.

A Blue Lude

What is the form factor like on these injectors? Drop in replacement for something like, say, my H22?

OH_1fstgsr

iTrader: (2)

92TypeR, You mentioned the injector timing in your work on your FSAE car, but is that what the OP did?

"The both were tuned to the best we could (fuel wise)." Does this mean duty cycles?