Building race car RSX vs Civic Si
08-05-2009, 07:18 AM
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Building race car RSX vs Civic Si
I race in Canada's premier Touring series (www.touringcar.ca) and my current 2000 Civic Si is only eligible for one more season so I'm looking at building a new Race car!
I'm leaning towards an RSX or 06+ Civic Si. They both have the same powertrain which I have to keep stock internally and am only allowed to change the Final drive in the trany.
As of next season, we are not allowed any Spoilers except the OE offering.
What's difference are there with these 2 cars????
Thanks
I'm leaning towards an RSX or 06+ Civic Si. They both have the same powertrain which I have to keep stock internally and am only allowed to change the Final drive in the trany.
As of next season, we are not allowed any Spoilers except the OE offering.
What's difference are there with these 2 cars????
Thanks
08-05-2009, 07:33 AM
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Re: Building race car RSX vs Civic Si
With out question the +06 civic SI.
I LOVE the rsx, its styling and the way it looks on track, but from people who have raced them in WC TC, and Grand Am ST they are the scariest thing that those guys have driven. Yes they are fast but, the suspension on both ends has tons of issues.
The GA ST guys run impossibly stiff springs so that the suspension doesn't move, and the guys in WC TC completely redesigned the suspension and still ran fairly stiff springs.
The 06 civic SI doesn't have the suspension issues that the RSX does. And it can work good fairly easily.
I LOVE the rsx, its styling and the way it looks on track, but from people who have raced them in WC TC, and Grand Am ST they are the scariest thing that those guys have driven. Yes they are fast but, the suspension on both ends has tons of issues.
The GA ST guys run impossibly stiff springs so that the suspension doesn't move, and the guys in WC TC completely redesigned the suspension and still ran fairly stiff springs.
The 06 civic SI doesn't have the suspension issues that the RSX does. And it can work good fairly easily.
08-05-2009, 07:58 AM
#3
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Re: Building race car RSX vs Civic Si
what slammed 93 said... get the Civic Si...its suspension is vastly superior to that of the RSX esp. if these are your only choices on your shortlist.
08-05-2009, 08:01 AM
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Re: Building race car RSX vs Civic Si
Apart from The motor in the 06+ Civic's, are there any differences in a regular chassis vs the SI...I have to run Si brakes, are they also the same on a base model?
Cheers
Cheers
08-05-2009, 08:03 AM
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Re: Building race car RSX vs Civic Si
We have to run a car that's less then 10 years old and touring as 2 tires option in the R888, 205-15s -r 205-17s plus the motor can't be more then a 2.0L
Any other sugestions for a race Car???
Any other sugestions for a race Car???
08-05-2009, 08:20 AM
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Re: Building race car RSX vs Civic Si
The Si is better suspension wise and it has an LSD and that helps put the power down coming out of curves.
I have tried both on track and the Si feels superior in every aspect.
I have tried both on track and the Si feels superior in every aspect.
08-05-2009, 08:26 AM
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Re: Building race car RSX vs Civic Si
I wouldn't do it again, as it required a lot of parts.
Just on the front end alone you need to replace the following
Engine (duh)
trans (duh)
subframe
steering rack- this also requires a new computer for the PS rack, and it has to be "set" by a dealer. And IIRC you need to change the instrument cluster out to the SI unit.
radiator
LCA
Spindle
Fuel lines
The upper passenger side "torque mount" has a completely different chassis mounting point. We fabricated our own, if you want it to be factory you have to change out the whole sheet metal upper strut mount.
That is off the top of my head, and there was more stuff that had to be changed also, like fuel pump rear suspension parts and rear brakes/hubs.
It isn't an easy swap.
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08-05-2009, 08:35 AM
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Re: Building race car RSX vs Civic Si
That sounds like an enormous pain in the ***. Not that it was there to begin with, but count that swap as crossed off my list of things I'd like to do in the future 
08-05-2009, 08:58 AM
#9
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Re: Building race car RSX vs Civic Si
lol.....just a fyi....any macphearson strut cars has to be set up so there is no body lean in turns. Body lean = major changes is sispension angles. This goes for mini coopers, 911's golf/rabbits and m3's. What most people do is stop this lean with huge sways but sways reduce grip. Why would you want to reduce grip on a race car? That and sways change rate as they are are loaded. Macstrut cars need to be setup with as little sway as possible but most racers think if the factory set a car up with sways, you need bigger ones to race.....wrong.
As for what car to set up.....depends on your clubs rules...you always pick a car buy the rules.
As for what car to set up.....depends on your clubs rules...you always pick a car buy the rules.
08-05-2009, 09:12 AM
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Re: Building race car RSX vs Civic Si
lol.....just a fyi....any macphearson strut cars has to be set up so there is no body lean in turns. Body lean = major changes is sispension angles. This goes for mini coopers, 911's golf/rabbits and m3's. What most people do is stop this lean with huge sways but sways reduce grip. Why would you want to reduce grip on a race car? That and sways change rate as they are are loaded. Macstrut cars need to be setup with as little sway as possible but most racers think if the factory set a car up with sways, you need bigger ones to race.....wrong.
.
.
RTR ran very very very stiff sway bars front and rear on the RSX. As did the Mechanic Shop North/King motorsports RSX.
Also sway bars have 1 rate, they don't "change rate". They apply the same force to the wheel when cornering through out there operating range.
08-05-2009, 11:00 AM
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Re: Building race car RSX vs Civic Si
I've already found and 06 Civic Si with a Cage and 5.062FD....It has little to no milleage and is going to be used in the Targa Of Newfoundland.
Ok, So now let's make this car handle....The Car has to be 2550lbs with me in it (175lbs)
????
Ok, So now let's make this car handle....The Car has to be 2550lbs with me in it (175lbs)
????
08-07-2009, 05:07 AM
#12
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Re: Building race car RSX vs Civic Si
http://forums.clubep3.net/showthread.php?t=657092
Steve Hoeschler barless suspension setup ........as far as I know, steve started this trend and it really does work....or you could just follow everyone else, kinda hard to win a race like that though...
08-07-2009, 05:10 AM
#13
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Re: Building race car RSX vs Civic Si
You can't make blanket statements like that. Because there is no absolutes in how to make a car handle.
RTR ran very very very stiff sway bars front and rear on the RSX. As did the Mechanic Shop North/King motorsports RSX.
Also sway bars have 1 rate, they don't "change rate". They apply the same force to the wheel when cornering through out there operating range.
RTR ran very very very stiff sway bars front and rear on the RSX. As did the Mechanic Shop North/King motorsports RSX.
Also sway bars have 1 rate, they don't "change rate". They apply the same force to the wheel when cornering through out there operating range.
08-07-2009, 05:33 AM
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Re: Building race car RSX vs Civic Si
but you obviously have it all figured out so i'll keep stop typing.
You should read this though, from some one who has written books and does it for a living http://buddyfey.blogspot.com/
08-07-2009, 06:32 AM
#15
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Re: Building race car RSX vs Civic Si
well **** since you have it all figured out why aren't you working for several teams setting up suspension and chassis??
but you obviously have it all figured out so i'll keep stop typing.
You should read this though, from some one who has written books and does it for a living http://buddyfey.blogspot.com/
but you obviously have it all figured out so i'll keep stop typing.
You should read this though, from some one who has written books and does it for a living http://buddyfey.blogspot.com/
Last edited by mustclime; 08-07-2009 at 06:47 AM.
08-07-2009, 06:45 AM
#17
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Re: Building race car RSX vs Civic Si
well **** since you have it all figured out why aren't you working for several teams setting up suspension and chassis??
but you obviously have it all figured out so i'll keep stop typing.
You should read this though, from some one who has written books and does it for a living http://buddyfey.blogspot.com/
but you obviously have it all figured out so i'll keep stop typing.
You should read this though, from some one who has written books and does it for a living http://buddyfey.blogspot.com/
and you might want to follow his advice btw.....
The solution:
-Test new stuff, don’t just throw it on the car and pronounce it an improvement. Testing may be physical, at the track or other (wind tunnel, 7-post, shock dyno, K&C). Testing may also be virtual (CFD, FEA, etc.)
-Sometimes you don’t know if your idea is bad until you try something different.
-Keep an open mind when trying new stuff. Be prepared to give up on it.
-Learn how to recognize which new ideas have a better chance of succeeding
08-07-2009, 11:00 AM
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Re: Building race car RSX vs Civic Si
I am following his advice.
I have an open mind and i don't think any one should just throw on what you, or some other random guy on the internet says will be the best. Remember you are the one that came into this post spouting off about "absolutes" with how sway bars suck, Steve Hoeschler is the setup master, blow everyone out of the water with this setup.
Not me, i stated that some very fast cars, BTW do you know who RTR is? or who the Mechanic shop North/King motorsports is?, use sway bars.
I didn't say he would be an idiot if he didn't use them, nor did i hint towards that directions.
Maybe you should go back and read what you wrote, you are the one with the closed mind, and absolutes.
FYI a sway bar is a spring, Coil spring like what goes on a shock is simply coiled and a sway bar is straight.
On my own race car i am constantly working and changing, one thing at a time, to make it handle better.
I have an open mind and i don't think any one should just throw on what you, or some other random guy on the internet says will be the best. Remember you are the one that came into this post spouting off about "absolutes" with how sway bars suck, Steve Hoeschler is the setup master, blow everyone out of the water with this setup.
Not me, i stated that some very fast cars, BTW do you know who RTR is? or who the Mechanic shop North/King motorsports is?, use sway bars.
I didn't say he would be an idiot if he didn't use them, nor did i hint towards that directions.
Maybe you should go back and read what you wrote, you are the one with the closed mind, and absolutes.
FYI a sway bar is a spring, Coil spring like what goes on a shock is simply coiled and a sway bar is straight.
On my own race car i am constantly working and changing, one thing at a time, to make it handle better.
08-07-2009, 11:02 AM
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Re: Building race car RSX vs Civic Si
1.) the steering arm/tie rod was taken off of the strut and moved on to the knuckle. (this was the fronts biggest handy cap)
in the rear
It is a complete re design. It is not coil over shock, and isn't even a trailing arm setup.
08-07-2009, 01:25 PM
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Re: Building race car RSX vs Civic Si
Somebody say Sway Barz?
Well, it's always a treat to get the opportunity to talk about Them again.
Yes, Sway Bars are Evil. Yes, Sway Bars just reduce grip and evilly transfer innocent weight from the inside wheels to the outside wheels - which is exactly what we don't want.
In Fact, the effects get worse the bigger the bars, as Mustclimb alluded to. At the extreme you have absolutely zero grip and the car tips over the instant the steering wheel is turned.
When I look at cars in the paddock I make a simple calculation as to the engineering competence of the operation by taking the inverse of the size of their bars. Yes, almost all prove to be exceedingly stupid.
These are the Laws of Physics you understand, there can be no argument.
Scott, who asks "Is this board Great or What?"...
** I would add that I recently went thru a phase where I talked myself out of sway bars very logically, but found that to get the roll stiffness necessary I had two wheel pitch rates that were so high as to make the car porpoise on rollers, bounce on the tires, and be extremely touchy in a rough brake zone - almost spun once while going in a straight line when all of the sudden I only had one front wheel pushing back Very Hard. My new theory is that for many applications it is a good idea to decouple pitch and roll stiffness somewhat.
Well, it's always a treat to get the opportunity to talk about Them again.
Yes, Sway Bars are Evil. Yes, Sway Bars just reduce grip and evilly transfer innocent weight from the inside wheels to the outside wheels - which is exactly what we don't want.
In Fact, the effects get worse the bigger the bars, as Mustclimb alluded to. At the extreme you have absolutely zero grip and the car tips over the instant the steering wheel is turned.
When I look at cars in the paddock I make a simple calculation as to the engineering competence of the operation by taking the inverse of the size of their bars. Yes, almost all prove to be exceedingly stupid.
These are the Laws of Physics you understand, there can be no argument.
Scott, who asks "Is this board Great or What?"...
** I would add that I recently went thru a phase where I talked myself out of sway bars very logically, but found that to get the roll stiffness necessary I had two wheel pitch rates that were so high as to make the car porpoise on rollers, bounce on the tires, and be extremely touchy in a rough brake zone - almost spun once while going in a straight line when all of the sudden I only had one front wheel pushing back Very Hard. My new theory is that for many applications it is a good idea to decouple pitch and roll stiffness somewhat.
Last edited by RR98ITR; 08-07-2009 at 01:45 PM.
08-07-2009, 02:32 PM
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Re: Building race car RSX vs Civic Si
Somebody say Sway Barz?
Well, it's always a treat to get the opportunity to talk about Them again.
Yes, Sway Bars are Evil. Yes, Sway Bars just reduce grip and evilly transfer innocent weight from the inside wheels to the outside wheels - which is exactly what we don't want.
In Fact, the effects get worse the bigger the bars, as Mustclimb alluded to. At the extreme you have absolutely zero grip and the car tips over the instant the steering wheel is turned.
When I look at cars in the paddock I make a simple calculation as to the engineering competence of the operation by taking the inverse of the size of their bars. Yes, almost all prove to be exceedingly stupid.
These are the Laws of Physics you understand, there can be no argument.
Scott, who asks "Is this board Great or What?"...
** I would add that I recently went thru a phase where I talked myself out of sway bars very logically, but found that to get the roll stiffness necessary I had two wheel pitch rates that were so high as to make the car porpoise on rollers, bounce on the tires, and be extremely touchy in a rough brake zone - almost spun once while going in a straight line when all of the sudden I only had one front wheel pushing back Very Hard. My new theory is that for many applications it is a good idea to decouple pitch and roll stiffness somewhat.
Well, it's always a treat to get the opportunity to talk about Them again.
Yes, Sway Bars are Evil. Yes, Sway Bars just reduce grip and evilly transfer innocent weight from the inside wheels to the outside wheels - which is exactly what we don't want.
In Fact, the effects get worse the bigger the bars, as Mustclimb alluded to. At the extreme you have absolutely zero grip and the car tips over the instant the steering wheel is turned.
When I look at cars in the paddock I make a simple calculation as to the engineering competence of the operation by taking the inverse of the size of their bars. Yes, almost all prove to be exceedingly stupid.
These are the Laws of Physics you understand, there can be no argument.
Scott, who asks "Is this board Great or What?"...
** I would add that I recently went thru a phase where I talked myself out of sway bars very logically, but found that to get the roll stiffness necessary I had two wheel pitch rates that were so high as to make the car porpoise on rollers, bounce on the tires, and be extremely touchy in a rough brake zone - almost spun once while going in a straight line when all of the sudden I only had one front wheel pushing back Very Hard. My new theory is that for many applications it is a good idea to decouple pitch and roll stiffness somewhat.
