94eg!

iTrader: (2)

My EG is down almost 3" (2.75"F 2.5"R) and there is plenty of room front & rear to adjust toe. The only time you will run into trouble is if you have a bent arm or chassis.

welltal89

I haven't read any of the other posts, but I believe you need a camber kit if you want your tires to last as long as possible. Especially if you don't track your car. I don't really know of a case on the street where you'll generate enough lateral force to need -4 camber.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

If you are running -4 on stock suspension, then something is bent/broken.

I have -2.5 front & -1.5 rear and I'm lowered almost 3"! That's less than most BMW's stock! I guess that's what happens when you DON"T READ THE POSTS!

welltal89

OP put -4 in his initial post, that's where I got that number from.

That's great, about your specs, but what does that have to do with my statement?

I also don't understand the comparison between your car and a BMW. Not completely different suspensions, but different enough.

I'm just saying, if you don't track your car, or go on spirited driving adventures, then the fact that one has negative camber deviating a bit from OEM specs will degrade tires more quickly than if there were OEM spec camber.

98civdx

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

And we are saying you are incorrect!

99.9% freeway...

welltal89

Your inboard sipe edges are more worn than your outboard sipe edges.

There's also no image of the wear bars in your picture.

Look, a tire with oem camber settings rolling on a flat surface is going to wear more evenly (and may last longer) than a tire that has a slightly more aggressive angle to it, plain and simple.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

oh lord!

ShaunRR

I don't think you and I are looking at the same picture.

This has been discussed over and over in this thread. What you are saying might be true if tires were simply solid pieces of rubber, but they are not.

98civdx

What's this "OEM" camber?

My civic is barely out of "OEM spec" front and rear, running -2* or whatever I'm at. (i'd have to look)

welltal89

Understood, tires definitely are not simply pieces of rubber (I used to work at a large tire company, the actual company, not a tire shop) and also know that there are tires specifically made for those individuals who choose to lower their cars and run more negative camber (Nitto Neogen with the bulkier inboard edge comes to mind) but the fact that the suspension gains camber when compressed (which is where the natural tendency for the wheel/tire to camber more when lowered) means that it will wear more on the inside of a regular street tire. I run more negative camber myself on my ep3, but I drive somewhat more aggressive, and I go to autocross events. I am justifying my point for someone who wants to lower their car for looks and who doesn't do spirited driving. Hell maybe that's no one here, maybe it's two people.

welltal89

Sorry for not answering, but OEM camber is what the designers intended camber range is when taking one's car to the dealer or an alignment shop. It's normally included in the print out one get's after their car has been aligned, and it's different for different cars.

98civdx

I am on "regular street" tires, with perfect tire wear at ~-2*+ camber all around, on a car that is driven aggressively.

daxr

Just chiming in to agree with the thread, in general. I've been doing alignments for 25 years, and while I've put in quite a few camber kits, I generally don't sell them or recommend them. Plenty of cars roll off the assembly line with -1.5 or -2 camber as a factory spec, and we really don't see wear issues from that.

If you go to -3 degrees or so, as long as the toe is correct you'll probably see a bit of inside shoulder wear, but nothing extreme. I usually say you might get 25% less life out of the tire than with a stock set-up. I might not want to drive a lowered car set up like that across country, but that's generally not what they're built for.

My biggest problem with lowered cars is that its hard to find a shop with an alignment rack that you can get them on and off without difficulty. The last shop I worked at we had a jerry-rigged pair of ramps we could use, and it worked ok for most rigs. My current shop isn't set up well, and one of my projects is to build a more gradual ramp system.

98civdx

It's nice to see someone else understands.

Fortunately my car isn't too low, so they can get it on the rack without much difficulty.
I did the slammed thing for a while and used to have to take the front bumper off for the guy to get it on the lift.

welltal89

Reading details helps clarify, I said if you DON'T drive aggressively, then you'll experience uneven tire wear on a car with more negative camber than the suspension was designed for. For those that DO drive aggressively, myself included, then inboard shoulder tire wear is the least of our problems.

Also another point of clarification: I'm arguing against the OP's statement that tires will wear evenly without a camber kit. My argument is for those individuals trying to get maximum tread life, not really anything else.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

I gave up on getting alignments at shops. Pretty much every one I've been to in the last 15 years was less than stellar. Even if their results come out with perfect numbers on the printout, the car was not really trued. I figure they either A) Do not know how to use the equipment, or B) Do not get it calibrated regularly.

I now do my own string alignments (toe only) with .2mm fishing line an a .5mm precision-scale in less time than it would take me to get to a shop, wait, and come home again. I definitely get better & more repeatable results doing this.

I realize it's not for everyone as you have to be meticulous and have an extremely organized & methodical mentality. But if you think that describes you, I would say go ahead and go for it. After 6 or so of these alignments on my 4 various cars, I can say with confidence I am accurate to within +/-0.2mm of total toe (within +/-0.1mm per wheel).

Tools:
- 2 jack stands
- .2mm fishing line
- .5mm precision scale (metal)
- some junk mail (slip plates)
- 2 cheap picture frame bubble levels (one for steering wheel to make sure it stays centered & one to hold your scale level)
- A steering wheel holder tool (helps to keep it striaghtish)
- A cheap set of LONG open-ended wrenches from Harbor Freight (make it easy to break loose tie-rod jam nuts without lifting the car up)

TunerN00b

And how does the OEM camber spec, intended for use at OEM ride height, on OEM spring rates, with the OEM camber and toe curves, intended as a compromise to try and cover all possible uses and drivers, at all apply to a lowered car that has changed every single one of those things?

DC_Addict

Very informative - thanks!

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

all I see is almost new tires trying to claim no camber wear.

show your tires closer to the end of life

and also a lot of people forget about blown out bushings

I did alignment every year. and it was on point.
also had some urethane bushings underbody done by previous owner.

my tires were eaten up completely on the inner edge from blown out bushings and had about 80% thread everywhere else

pumafeet10

I have a bit of a different scenario then most on here, 06 accord, koni yellows with neuspeed springs. i believe the springs are rated to drop the car 1.5-2in, but im also looking for tire life and mpg's, With tire life, low rolling resistance, and mpgs in mind..for now, should i be considering a camber kit?

also, my car only has 62k, and is driven very gently, was passed down to me from my grandfather, and to be honest my last civic was a tin can, and this accord is and will continue to be a more well cared for car.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

Blown out bushings allow all sorts of dynamic toe situations that cannot be measured on a static alignment rack. My tires in the photo were by no means brand new. You can see the tread blocks have been worn down from the early E configuration into the 8 shape meant to help maintain traction with wear. I've been driving that car weekly for 5 years. I even moved it from Vegas to Reno and back.

New:


Worn:

pumafeet10

that doesnt look too bad at all, any input on my accord? still cant seem to find a good answer around the interwebs

slowcivic2k

Vehicle lowering alters the vehicle from its factory state, and as such your tire wear will increase at a rate that you may or may not be comfortable with. If you are a "road race" or "street race" guy, disregard, as there may be no changing your method of thinking. Racing ruins tires, it is a byproduct of traction and torque applied.

Most tires today that are a reasonable size, held in a reasonable operating range will last at least 40,000 miles, and many tires are rated for much better than that. Many Honda owners, much like myself, prefer a lowered look. But I am not going to thrash my tires in the process of doing so when a simple correction can be made. Most Honda-Tech users are enthusiasts, and in my career follow the first piece of advice they find. If you are a die hard racer, you should be talking to a mechanic about your particular situation.

Bushings cause a lot of dynamic suspension alignment problems that as I would agree with 94eg, will never be seen on a rack. The question is, which bushings cause the wear, and which ones don't. Caster compliance bushing wear will cause toe and minor camber changes that are not usually seen on a rack. This would be your typical radius (or strut) rod bushing that is separated or damaged. Other bushings will cause other types of problems depending on location and orientation, but their purpose is known because the location is known. It's whether or not you understand why its there and what it does.

FOR ALL THOSE LOOKING FOR REASONABLE WAYS TO FIX ALIGNMENT ANGLE PROBLEMS:

Sure, you could spend a lot of money on a fancy adjustable control arm or ball joint, but if you could remedy your alignment in a much cheaper way, why wouldn't you?

For instance, 88-00 civics use an upper member in the rear suspension that can be shimmed with washers, and if needed, a slightly longer bolt. In my experience 50-80 thousandths washers are all that is require on almost ANY car with this arrangement, front or rear, caster or camber. I perform this repair on a lot on cars where the owner does not want to pay for new coils, but wants good tire wear. If I told him he was s**t out of luck, I'd be out of a job. There are modifications that can be made to correct most alignment problems on the cheap. Most of them involve washers and a small amount of filing.

There is always a limit though. Slamming a car is very difficult to correct because the body usually no longer allows proper suspension travel due to interference. If you slam a car, you are on the bleeding edge, and by bleeding, I mean your pocket book.

One last thought. When all the suspension parts are tight, most people say it is a bushing problem or bent suspension.... which one is it? or where could it be bent? If you spit out information like this and cannot explain a specific part AND reason that COULD (is or isn't) be the culprit, don't reply. This forum is mucked up enough with poor advice as it is. If you have a legitimate concern about your alignment, create a thread with proper information, and we will help you find a solution. Blind advice is blind.

Thor294

In a nutshell, take your car to a REPUTABLE SHOP and have them align it. If they say the adjustment is maxed out and your camber is still way to negative, you may need a "camber kit"

The aftermarket always try to sell some BS kits that fix your car.

I like this post a lot! +1 OP