PatrickGSR94

iTrader: (1)

EJ1 = 92-95 Civic coupe.

How much are you lowered to have this "good bit" of negative camber? Any idea what the actual camber angle is?

Cortez_h

I got the shell with these no name springs. But I'm 7 in. off the ground with 1 1/2 in.- 2in. fender gap. I have no ideal what the camber angle is. I know my alignment is off since I replaced the springs recently. But all the shops I go to don't wanna touch my car since it's lowered and I don't have a camber kit. I'm chewing through my rear tires right now.

PatrickGSR94

iTrader: (1)

Excessive camber with 2" fender gap tells me something is bent. There definitely should not be that much camber.

Unless... does the car by chance have aftermarket rear lower control arms? Might want to check it out, but if they're for a 96-00 Civic application, they're longer than 92-95 Civic LCA's and would push the bottom of the tire out, creating excessive negative camber.

BiG ChOr!Zo

iTrader: (1)

I got my lifetime alignment last weekend at Firestone and my car is dropped 2.5F & 2.25R...The manager said that all they could do was set the toe since im lowered but the techs are usually cool enough to actually hook you up from what I was told even with adjustable suspension.

I paid $159.99 total and it was well worth the price and can go to any Firestone nationwide

ekSedanB16a2

I do alignments daily... and when i lowered my own car the tow was not out of spec, ya it was off very little from 0degrees but driving a car for a while can do that too.... i put the camber kit on left my tow and adjusted my camber and sure its not super excessive wear but why the **** would you want to drive on and wear out __ this much tire when you pay for _____ this much? i wanna use my whole tire better traction and even wear...

PatrickGSR94

iTrader: (1)

Toe changes both with ride height changes and with camber changes alone. There is no possible way you could install a camber kit and adjust it without the toe being off and having to adjust the steering tie rods.

TunerN00b

You do alignments, yet don't even know how toe is spelled?

And even a tire with a relatively high degree of negative camber uses the "whole tire" (which probably should be read as "entire tread area", as you don't want to drive on the sidewalls). The tire is a balloon that deforms to the surface of the road. If the tire didn't deform like this, and the car had 0* of static camber, the instant you tried to turn you'd lose all traction as the body roll decambered the tire relative to the road...

wannaBjdmca6

^ PWND!

meb58

In England toe is spelled tow...used quite frequently in many engineering forums.

If the car in question has a fair amount of caster the outside wheel will gain some neg camber even if sitting still with 0 deg static camber...if it is an SLA design it will gain camber while moving...even if there is 0 deg static camber. A make strut will run out of neg camber at some point in its stroke even if set at .5 deg neg static.

chrisff521

I just went yesterday to get an alignment and the Guy told me I had to get a camber kit. My front left camber was -2 and the front right was -4 but both sides are the same hieght. I think it has to do with me replacig the passenger upper control arm recently. I told him to set the toe to zero or as close to it. Am I gonna be ok with out the cambe kit.? My dc4 is only lowered a lil with some wheel gap still on koni,gc,extended top hats in the front.

98civdx

I have never seen camber change -2 degrees like that without something being bent.

PatrickGSR94

iTrader: (1)

Yeah that cross camber difference of 2 degrees is not a good sign, if both sides are the same ride height. Sounds like suspension and/or frame damage under there.

TunerN00b

The shop manual for my Spitfire spells it "tow", now that I think about it.

Of course, it also includes "tyres", spanner, bonnet, boot, and several other "uncommon in America" terms/spelling. The manual actually includes an "English to American translation" section at the front.

Damn British ruining the language...

True, but not relevant to the point. The poster claimed a tire with negative camber won't use the entire tread surface, which it does.

Caster creates steering angle based camber (and weight jacking, but that's it's own topic). However, camber needs are dictated by the lateral force of the corner. And since you can corner at the same lateral force at different speeds, which require different levels of steering angle input, you'll only have the correct amount of camber at one speed.

True, but it will not gain negative camber as fast as the body roll will decamber the tire relative to the road surface (at least on a production car).

Make strut = mac strut?
Generally, "mac strut" is short for MacPherson strut. Or perhaps this is the Queen's English returning to haunt us...

And yes, the lack of a "real" camber curve is possibly the largest detriment of such a suspension design. Of course, the mac strut design is also cheaper, simpler, smaller (easier to fit on a small car), and generally stronger, which is why most manufacturers have gone to it for their compact cars.

Original.

OMG THANK YOU. There is a God!

SVOHK

Yup took my car for an alignment. And was told i needed a "camber wall joint kit" cause my car was lowered..They were Charging me 650 bucks.

meb58

Yes, one side of the car is lifted while the other drops - why too much caster washes out SAI returnability/self centering. Technically jacking describes a dynamic roll center that is high enough to migrate around and above the center of gravity in severe cases...can actually cause the outside wheel to lift off the ground. not sure if this is what happens when motorcyles get all crossed up and flip riders off...not fun!

Cornering load is cornering load...1g is 1g...excluding caster angle, camber angle will be a function of roll angle which is a function of lateral acceleration. I agree that steering wheel angles will change camber if we include caster...otherwise roll angle affects camber -instant centers don't really care about caster or diameter of the curve...perhaps I am missing something...? We do get some changes in geometry as a tire distorts and through bushing deflection but I am not including those.

"Caster creates steering angle based camber (and weight jacking, but that's it's own topic). However, camber needs are dictated by the lateral force of the corner. And since you can corner at the same lateral force at different speeds, which require different levels of steering angle input, you'll only have the correct amount of camber at one speed."


Camber gain and body roll are inextricably linked to instant centers and roll centers...so camber curve is the same either through full compression stroke, body on bumpstops or a combination of both.

"True, but it will not gain negative camber as fast as the body roll will decamber the tire relative to the road surface (at least on a production car)."


I meant Mac Strut...MacPhearson Strut...not sure if this a purely english term...

"Make strut = mac strut?
Generally, "mac strut" is short for MacPherson strut. Or perhaps this is the Queen's English returning to haunt us..."

WhiteSlips

This thread pisses me off every time I see it at the top of the page stickied.... On some vehicles, a rear camber kit is essential in setting the camber/toe correctly. For instance on my wife's 2007 TSX the rear toe and rear camber would have been WAY off if we did not utilize the Ingalls camber kit which replaces both lower Links in the rear.

98civdx

Yes, shops will almost always tell you need one, why? So you will buy one and they make money.
If you must have a camber kit, buy and install your self and take it to them to have it aligned.

I do have to agree with WhiteSlipsWithStickers, only because i saw a lowerd tsx today and the rear was camberd to hell.

90civichb

I can chime in to vouch for the OPs comments on camber kits. I was convinced by an "alignment tech" that I needed a camber kit. I was told that SPC was a good brand, so I looked them up. At the time, a lot of shops were using these to sell to customers that wanted everything done in the shop (without having to source parts themselves). I ended up buying a ball joint replacement style camber kit for the front. It looked decent prior to installing it on the car, but within 500 miles the ball joint was basically useless. It had exploded and splattered grease all over the upper portion of the suspension. On top of that, during that 500 miles, it managed to slip out of position several times. I am convinced that it slipped a little every time I hit a bump in the road.

I removed this, got new tires, and had the car aligned, and I have seen no visible change in the way my tires wear with my car at the same ride height (Lowered about 2/2.5 inches).

What I have noticed however, is that the upper a-arm no longer contacts my shock tower as it did before with that stupid camber kit installed.

The rear, due to excessive negative camber was taken care of with washers, but only to get it "within spec", and not to remove all negative camber completely.

I don't have my numbers off hand to show my alignment specs, but I definitely don't regret not purchasing another kit or using the diy method in the rear.

With that said, does anyone have any comments on the toe adjuster arms that are being sold these days? my toe adjusts just fine with the stock setup, but those definitely seem to make the job easier...

PatrickGSR94

iTrader: (1)

Did you bother to read my original post? I mentioned that cars having a steep rear camber curve, such as 96-00 Civics, are an exception. Those cars could benefit from reducing the rear negative camber a bit, as long as you use something that won't slip (turnbuckle-style adjuster arms, washer trick, etc).

And there you have it. Another satisfied customer. Your experiences running no camber correction (in the front anyway) mirror mine and many others.

I would not recommend those on cars like 90's Civics and Integras with trailing arm suspension with toe adjustment in the compensator arms. Reason being is that the arms will end up being a different length than stock, and will undoubtedly be different between each one. This will result in different toe curves on each side of the car and could have an adverse effect on handling, depending on whether you're turning left or right. Not a good idea to have that sort of unpredictable handling characteristics.

Lowe93EG

The wear on the inner most tread block of the tire alone is definitely toe related wear. If your car has a slope across the tire as it wears that is indicative of camber wear. This might have already been pointed out but I didn't feel like reading through all 11 pages of the forum.

PatrickGSR94

iTrader: (1)

This is correct, and in my experience, if you only have camber wear you'll get down to the tire's wear bars before you get to the cords on the inner edge alone. Toe wear will take the inner edge down to the cords LONG before the rest of the tire is worn out.

markspan6243

without the camber kit i bought, my wheels would be sitting aweful. the camber kit i got fixed it and now it is sitting close enough to factory specs.

DTMamg

I hella confused now. are there kits available to fix the wheel caster as well?

TunerN00b

Define "fix".

Whiteline makes a caster kit for the EG/DC chassis. It simply offers another way to increase caster. If you feel like spending $50 for 4 bolts and a bunch of washers...