carybriel

Hi,

This is my first time posting here. I've been here studying the posts many times however.. This is a great forum w/ great people. :)

My problem...

My car is a 2002 Honda Accord SE w/ a 2.3L VTEC engine (F23A1). The engine has around 130K miles. A problem has been developing over time, and has progressed now to the point where it really needs to be fixed.

The engine runs well except when idling. At idle, it idles too low (almost stalls at times), and runs rough. Recently, I scanned and found p0300 (random misfire) code as well as p030x for all 4 cyls. There is also a p1399, which I understand (I think) is a pending code for random misfire. That's what I've read anyway.

Driving seems normal at higher RPMs. I can't say that there is no misfire at all above idle, because it seems to run slightly rough at lower RPMs (hard to tell), but at normal driving speeds the engine runs well, has power, smooth, no noticible problem.

There is also a p0420 (cat system efficiency) code, but it's been that way for some time (an in the back of my mind, know that I need to fix thing before next inspect). At the moment I don't think that could affect idle/misfire, but I'm open to suggestions. There's also a p1457 (evap leak), and that's been there a while too. Again, didn't think it was related, but not sure.

Finally, because of the random misfire issue, the CEL blinks after it idles, indicating cat damaging operation (not that my cat is good, but anyway... :)

What I've done...

I've replaced plugs, wires, distributor cap, and rotor. I've also replaced the coil in the distributor housing because there was a small burn spot under it where it came in contact w/ the plate that mounts behind it. The coil is hitachi. All OEM honda parts. NGK plugs, gapped, installed and torqued to spec. All parts purchased from Majestic Honda.

I've also cleaned the throttle body itself, and rotary air control valve, and installed a new gasket for both.

I've checked the EGR valve in the most non-technical way (and not worth describing).. But the valve is closed when disconnected. Could be bad.

None of the tests/changes above did any harm, and probably needed to be done anyway, but they did not correct the idle/misfire problem.

Finally, an independent shop recently replaced the timing belt and balancer shaft belt. They also replaced the cam and crank seal when the did this. I know for a fact that they did not use an OEM belt, so I want to install the OEM belt, and am in the process of doing so, and also verifying that both belts are timed correctly.

And... I also need to adjust the valve clearances. This has never been done!! The engine is a bit noisy when first started in the dead of winter on a very cold day, but is OK when it warms up, or on days when it's not cold.

---

I have a semi-immediate question, and also am open to general suggestions. When I looked at the rotary air control valve when removed, after cleaning it, the position of the round cylinder shaped valve itself was partially open when disconnected from the car. Has anyone noticed in this valve if it is normally partially opened by default? I moved the valve in both directions with a small screwdriver and it travels fully open and fully closed without any issue, and then springs back to the intermediate position, partially open, but I'm concerned that there may be a problem with the valve.

Any ideas?

Thanks.

Cary Briel

h0p3l355dork

When was the last time you replaced your alternator?

carybriel

Hi, it's never been replaced.

carybriel

Update:
I've been looking around for an answer to my misfire problem. An ASE honda/acura tech on justanswers.com wrote in an answer that removing the egr valve and watching the pintle when spraying carb cleaner in the port will indicate a bad egr if even the smallest amount of carb cleaner leaks out of the pintle. I did this and a small but noticable amount leaked by the pintle. He stated that the egr is a common item to go around 100K+. My 02 accord with 4cyl vtec has 130K. Can anyone verify that this egr valve test is valid? Should the pintle be so tightly sealed in the valve that no carb cleaner will leak by it?

Targa250R

If it was an EGR problem, you would have EGR codes - i.e. 1491, 0401, etc.

With the information you have given me, the first thing I would do with this car is a compression test in all four cylinders. I wouldn't touch anything else or spend a single dime on any parts until you do so.

Is the car losing any coolant?

carybriel

Not losing coolant. Coolant nice and green, no foam. Nothing strange that would indicate head gasket failure (so far).. I'll check compression on the cyls and let you know what I find.

dtapia

the shop you took the car to can they scan and get a data list of the car under operating temps. this will shed more light and the direction to proceed.
if not have your local honda or acura dealer do a diag and then they can also print the data list. or just have them fix the car for you.

carybriel

Thanks for the advice. Definitely on the "to do" list if I can't determine the prob. My concern is obviously putting too much cash into the wrong parts w/ trial and error methodology. The suggested cyl compression test should have been an obvious step that I skipped. But, if that checks out, and nothing else obvious pops up, definitely on a trip to the dealer.

dtapia

yes agree 100% their is a lot of people on here saying throw parts at the car and not addressing the real concern.
the data list is a very important part of the diag. can i ask when the last time the valves have been adjusted ?
a tight valve will cause problems like your having. i see it all the time.

carybriel

In this case, they have not been adjusted in 130k miles. I notice in very cold weather, they are somewhat loud until the car warms up, but otherwise OK. You mention a "tight valve".. Can you explain what you mean? Won't valve clearance get looser as time goes on? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding.. I'm actually planning on adjusting valve clearance on this car in the next couple days. It's something I can do for free, and at the moment I have the valve cover off. I've done it before on other hondas that I've owned when the noise became noticeable. Thanks for the help!

dtapia

the clearance is tight and will cause a random miss fire.not all valves will get loose some do as the parts wear and so forth.

carybriel

I will check for tight clearance on any valve when I adjust them. Thank you for the tip.. I'll be looking out for that.

Well, if I end up taking to the dealer, at least the parts that I've changed should have been changed anyway (won't hurt at 130k).. i.e., plugs, wires, cap, rotor. The coil in the distributor is prob the only potential waste of cash, but there was a small burn spot on the bottom of the old one, so I can rationalize replacing it I guess. Can you tell I'm trying to sell myself that I didn't waste money? Unless the problem is more major that is.

dtapia

LOL
since you have the vc off run thru the valves and see what you have. im betting on a tight valve or a few. let us know what you found if thats the problem

carybriel

Will do.. thanks again!

dtapia

dont you feel like adjusting them right now to see if the problem is corrected

Targa250R

Tune up parts are not a waste of money. Cap, rotor, air filter, and PCV valve should be changed every 30,000 miles. The platinum plugs on 00+ Accords should be changed every 105,000 (if you replaced them with copper plugs, every 30,000). No need to rationalize those items.

OEM Sumitomo plug wires are usually good for an extremely long time; I usually don't recommend replacing wires unless you have a problem with them (my '91 CRX with 261,000 miles had its original wires and still ran fantastic when I scrapped it). I wouldn't have replaced the coil either, but it's already done, so no sense worrying about it now.

A more major problem is my concern. I almost never see misfires bad enough to make the CEL blink unless the car has a dead cylinder or a severe timing problem. This is why I'd do a compression test before putting any more money into parts.

carybriel

That's funny that you say that. It's 1:25am here (Syracuse, NY).. When the person posted who suggested that I check compression (right before you replied), I saw his suggestion at midnight and went to the garage and *tried* to do the test only to find that my compression gauge was screwing up and not holding the reading. The needle jumps up and then back to zero. The release valve isn't working. So, that task is off until tomorrow when I can get a new compression gauge.
AND .. I do want to adjust them now, but I'll be out there all night (it's happened before).. and I'll probably screw it up working late. But, the short answer is 'yes' !

carybriel

Will definitely do the comp test tomorrow after replacing my defunct compression gauge... Just found out it has crapped out. I am also checking the timing belt (and balance belt) tomorrow. Want to make sure that the garage that did the job didn't screw that up.. Want to check belt tensions as well. I'll write here when I find out the compression readings on all cyls tomorrow.

dtapia

Targa250R
we see them all the time the map and st and lt fuel trim is rich and will cause random miss fires. even the idle quality is not smooth.i had a car a few years ago with a tight valve and tech line had me on a goose chase with checking compression checking fuel psi and even installing new injectors. well after all that the problem was a tight valve.we looked at the data list and it was seen almost instantly the map and fuel trim were off and made the valve adjustment and the readings came down and car ran perfect.
not so say that's all that could be wrong here. i see about 3 or 4 cars with tight valves with miss fire codes a lot.

dtapia

Did the problem start after the timing belt was replaced ? a belt that is off a tooth will also cause a miss fire dtc.

carybriel

It would be real easy for me to say yes to that question. The misfire problem happened shortly thereafter (after they changed timing/balance belts).

I noticed that the shop didn't use OEM belts. When I saw that they didn't use OEM parts on the receipt, I could have kicked myself for not specifying that I wanted OEM parts. And then the belt had a whine for a period (and I'm not sure it ever stopped whining). So, that's that.. And it wouldn't surprise me if it was off a tooth, but I think God would be making life to easy on me if it was that easy!

dtapia

well i would bring it up on tdc and see if the marks on the cam gear and the tdc mark on the pulley are correct. the whine is most likely a over tight balancer belt.

dtapia

ops forgot to ask does the whine go away when off idle ?

carybriel

Yes, only whines when idling. Just a dull, droning whine. Goes away when the accelerator is pressed slightly.

Will check tension on balancer belt. And, yes will make sure that cam gear marks are right on when tdc mark on pulley is on. Thanks for that tip!

dtapia

yup the belt is to tight. so the more we dig into this their could be a problem with the belt timing.