tronic

I am developing an EG hatchback this season for SM, just to be mildly competitive at our local autocross events in Colorado (Bob Tunnel doesn't usually run local events at least). Looking for some advice on suspension setup. I've raced the car once, 4 runs, and it was WAY too tail happy and too sensitive to throttle-lift. The weather was cold, and my rear tires were pretty old and never got any heat in them. Conditions for the next race in a few days are also cold, but I have some fresher tires at least.

current suspension setup is:
-Koni Sports with OTS valving (set pretty very soft in the rear at the last race)
-450lb front / 335lb rear springs, Skunkworks coilover sleeves
-GSR 24mm front sway bar / Suspension Techniques (19mm?) rear bar
-215/40-16 v710's on 16x7.5 Kosei K1's, I ran about 37psi front / 28psi rear last time (I am not looking to change the wheel/tire setup, just working with what we have)

I just read Henry Watts' "Secrets of Solo Racing" chapter on late apex turns (p.42), and I THINK that if I can manage to pick a good line and use this technique everywhere, this car might be very fast. (Loose is fast, right?!)
The points of a late apex turn are: brake hard and early, turn in sharply, and power THROUGH the turn, shifting weight to the rear end = traction, gaining more exit speed and thus covering more distance, faster, until the next corner. The car has enough front grip at least to put some power down while cornering, though not a lot (no LSD).

what do you think?

can I get this car under control with just driving carefully?
disconnect the rear sway bar?
any other EG hatch SP/SM drivers want to share their suspension setups?

I'm used to FWD cars, raced an STS EF Civic last year which was loose, but this is my first time on R compound tires.

here are 2 videos from the last event I drove with this setup:

run 1 "oversteer city and cold tires"
http://naufana.com/autox/20070...y.wmv
4.75mb WMV

run 3 "slow but fastest" I was just coasting around the corners to get a clean run in.
http://naufana.com/autox/20070...t.wmv
6.64mb WMV

power wise, it's a B18C1 making B18C5 power, non-LSD GSR trans. will be getting JRSC'ed in the near future. not sure on the weight, but it's a light base model 93 hatchback.

STN_Pat

alignment ?

tronic

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by STN_Pat &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">alignment ?</TD></TR></TABLE>
oh yeah, alignment info..

it doesn't have any aggressive alignment settings right now (no extreme camber or toe), but I'm not sure what exactly the specs are right now. I should check that out I guess.

any alignment suggestions?

hybridmoments

a few of my friends run EG hatches with no rear sway, higher front springs then rear, and their cars still rotate well. however they don't have any front sways either.
i'd think once you disconnect your rear sway, that huge front sway might cause you to understeer quite a bit

maybe stick with your current setup, add in some more negative rear camber, maybe 2 degrees. put your rear toe to 0. is it currently toe'd out?

if that doesn't work, take off all your sway bars, add in a little more front spring rate. see how that works out.
different people like different setups, so it's tough to say. what you consider alot of oversteer someone else might find just enough, or even not enough.

vietnameeh

you can prolly go lower in the tire pressures... 710s like lil lower pressures on light cars

if his rear is coming out too much... wouldn't he wanna try a little toe in? or do i have it backwards

Crazydave

In my EG, I have no rear bar, 450ft/600r front bar is connected.

The car rotates very well.

I think 600 is a little high for the OTS konis, so maybe 500 would be better.


I was running on Dunlop Sp8000's

On the road course, this is an excellent setup. It's a bit loose and skatey for auto-x, but that could also be improper tire pressure or tire choice.

I was also running with 1/8" toe out in front and 0 toe in the rear.

Have you replaced your rear lower arm bushing and re-clocked it for the lowered suspension. I have heard that this makes a difference. I still have yet to do it.

ShagNastyEK9

i have 99 civic hatch with b18c running SM, no front or rear sway, same 450/355 spring combo, only GR2 struts for now, and at my last event this past sunday i was on 17x7.5" te-37's with some Matrac ebay tires (ordered a set of 205/50/15 NT-01 Nittos monday for my 15" volks though), at the event the car was really sketchy in the back end, push it really hard and it would hang out some, but turn in was pretty good considering the tire, i finished 2nd and a few seconds off the pace of an 03 mustang gt with engine work, suspension and hoosier slicks, so not bad, next time out i will have the nitto's and AMR full coilovers, but still no sways, see how it does then

SkyeC

I ran 380f/450r on Koni SP3s, 21mm front bar, 22mm Comptech rear bar on the stiffest setting, -1.5* camber all around, and I think 1/8" toe out in front and 0 in back (been awhile). It was extremely tossable and handled great-- it was beyond my skillset anyway.

It became a lot easier to handle after I installed an LSD which let me power out a lot sooner.

JOEY F.

The current setup on my SM '92 Civic is similar to yours. I too am running a B18c1 but with a non-LSD '99 SI trans I/H/E etc.. Not too sure how much power im making or how much the car weighs but it accelerates nice.

Anyway, I have a ITR front sway bar (I think it is 24mm like your GSR) and a 23mm ITR rear sway. Struts are Apexi Exv coilovers w/ rates at approx. 600lbs up front and somewhere around 250-300lbs out back. Camber is just from lowering so im guessing -2 or so, but the toe has been set to zero all the way around.

Tires are Toyo RA-1 225/50-15 on Enkei RPF-1's 15x7F and Konig Helium 15x6.5R Tire pressures are set to 34psi F and 30psi Rear.

Overall, I would say the car is very neutral. I was running the 23mm rear bar alone for the '06 season and found it a bit oversteer biased and sloppy in the slaloms as far as turn-in was concerned.

When I put the ITR front sway on, the front end flattened out a whole lot when going through slaloms and tight "C" boxes.

Like everyone says, there are so many different styles of driving and setups to suit different people. You mentioned you wanted to try braking "hard and early" and that loose is fast. This is very different from my driving style, where I like to trail brake a bunch and enjoy a neutral feel to the car with even a little "push", but to each his own.

What are you doing for brakes? I didnt realize how much a good set of pads could change the car until after I raced on R-compunds. I kept ***** footing the pedal on the street tires because I was afraid of locking up all the time. Now I just squeeze on them w/o worries.

The car:


PS: At the end of your fastest run, the PA system was REALLY clear...were you just right next to the timing booth or is it broadcasted on an AM station or something?

tronic

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JOEY F. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
PS: At the end of your fastest run, the PA system was REALLY clear...were you just right next to the timing booth or is it broadcasted on an AM station or something? </TD></TR></TABLE>
yeah, they broadcast on an FM station out here, which is really nice (for the cars with radios!)


thanks for all the advice, everyone.

I do like a "big front bar" on my cars, so I'll probably keep that. but I will disconnect or remove the rear sway bar for now, at least until the weather gets warmer and I get a handle on this car.

front brakes are from a GSR, with PBR/Axxis Ultimates (I've run those pads on all autocross cars and like them a lot). stock rear drum brakes.

DB2-R81

From your videos I would work on the driver along with the car. You are pointing and shooting with a low power car, learn to pre-turn a bit more, round out your turns more; you are starting turns late and apexing to early on a percentage of your turns.

Learn to ease the steering wheel into your turns you are jamming the wheel, squaring off the corners, not anticipating where you need to go and unsettling the car.

Also is that a gravel lot you are running on? From the return run on your third video into the sun you can see the dirt every where off the previous line and your wheel well noise indicates that surface is really dirty don’t your co-competitors sweep the lot before you run there?

tronic

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DB2-R81 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also is that a gravel lot you are running on? From the return run on your third video into the sun you can see the dirt every where off the previous line and your wheel well noise indicates that surface is really dirty don’t your co-competitors sweep the lot before you run there? </TD></TR></TABLE>
they did sweep, but it was practically a RALLYcross there was so much dust and debris there. I attribute some of the looseness to that surface, and the cold temps.
you should have seen the heat before I ran, they couldn't even see the course on the return route!

I do know I need to (and can) drive it better. it was so frustrating spending all my time trying to keep the car under control after each cone, rather than being able to look ahead and count on being where I wanted to.

tunes12

I would wait until the weather gets warmer before going too crazy. EG's on race tires when its cold=loose. I run 600f/500r with OEM front bar and 22mm rear bar, and even with the rear bar disconnected, the car is awful loose when its below about 50 degrees. I run 710's on 13x9's with about 30 psi front and between 24 and 35 in the rear depending on the temps.

Lo-Buck EF

it won't be fast w/o an lsd. id buy one before a supercharger

electron_si

even though i run a 00 coupe, i know what its like trying to keep focus while your car is all over the track. our first 2 events (scca and crown) were around 55 degrees maybe even colder. My tires never had a real chance to heat up, plus i was first heat in both so there was no rubber left on the track. WAIT until it warms up to make changes! cold tires make a huge difference in oversteer, especially if they are running higher pressures.

BubblegumTate

When you guys are talking about alignment, do you mean 1/8" TOTAL toe out in the front, or 1/8" at each wheel for 1/4" total toe? I am setting up the alignment for autox on my EG today and am looking for some good numbers.

Rodney

tronic, put your rear view mirror back on, not legal to remove it. also, get rid of the stock rack, needs too much movement. get a lsd asap, you cannot make a fast fwd car without one. plus, get a aftermarket wheel and ditch the huge heavy stocker. im me (preferably on aim, b18c5rodney) when you get a chance....

this car is too low:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JOEY F. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
</TD></TR></TABLE>

tate, i suggest starting with 1/8 total toe out front, with 0 toe in the rear. you can then work from there.

how about buying the fastest fwd SM car for the past 4 years? yep, she is up for sale....

hybridmoments

if you put the rearview back on you're definitely going to need to up your spring rates!!

nikolai.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rodney &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
how about buying the fastest fwd SM car for the past 4 years? yep, she is up for sale.... </TD></TR></TABLE>

Blasphemy.

What steering wheel do you use?

Rodney

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nikolai. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
What steering wheel do you use?</TD></TR></TABLE>

350mm momo. i have the one with the nitrous buttons

EGbeater

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybridmoments &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if you put the rearview back on you're definitely going to need to up your spring rates!!</TD></TR></TABLE>

LOL

Lotta good, intelligent input on this thread... thanks for all the insight.

That's my car, BTW... tronic is just developing it, because I'm a lazyass, and I'm currently flogging a similarly-under-developed E36 M3 in STU...

JOEY F.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rodney &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
this car is too low:
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ill raise it up just for you Rodney.

Rodney

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JOEY F. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ill raise it up just for you Rodney. </TD></TR></TABLE>

no, leave it down where it is. doesn;t bother me one iota. just trying to help.

tronic

update

we had another autocross event last weekend, and things went MUCH better.

I found that the Suspension Techniques rear sway bar was nearly completely seized up.. which helps explain things! I left it disconnected completely for this event. I ran fresher tires with 34/24psi, the rears got a little heat in them this time. OTS Konis at 1 turn off full soft. I also ran this thing down to about 1/5 tank with no fuel starvation that I noticed. temperatures were about 50-60' and sunny.

so the car handled exactly how I wanted it to. the course was quite fun (as are all of Kinch Reindl's) and rewarded good lines. not that I'm the best driver, but I had a chance of putting the car where I wanted it to this time. I did try to drive late apexing and powering through the turns; there I noticed I couldn't put much power down without overworking the outside front. LSD would help us a lot I think. the rear end would slightly drift out on hard cornering, just enough. it only got away from me on my first run with cold tires, and just for a bit on this run below.

here's my fastest run.. it looks like I could push it more in some areas but I'm happy enough with the results = .6 seconds behind Kinch in his DS ITR (with more tire, LSD, better driver..). but still a pathetic 892 points in SM.

http://naufana.com/autox/20070415-wa...un3fastest.wmv
8mb wmv

these pics were taken by Ryan Baumgartner (thanks for the coursewalk also)


check out the slope of this part of the course. I was hitting that hard, and there was a big gap/bump in the middle = BAM


a few other pics and vids here: http://naufana.com/autox/20070415-wa...lo1/index.html

Rodney

nice course layout, you can see it perfectly with that illegal mirror mod...