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Old 02-04-2007, 03:26 PM   #1
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Default K-Series engine swap into an NSX?

I know its rice, so you can move onto another thread now.

However if your still here, listen to my thoughts and add constructive criticism/discussion. Being that this is Honda-Tech and home to some of the best innovations around I thought you guys would have some optomistic view points.

The C30/C32 are great motors, and as far as production NA V6's, they are excellent performers. Now its no secret that the NSX could stand to have some more power. And thats when I started to notice the glaring problems with the C-Series. One, there are not a lot of choices and two its down right scary expensive.

I would say that 300HP to 400HP is a good respectable amount of power for an NSX. To get that power on a C30 your going to either have to rebuild the motor for NA power or go turbo/supercharger. To go either of those is going to cost at least $10,000 when all is said and done. Even more if you build the engine and add forced induction.

Consider the following....

Pistons: $1000
Cams: $1000
Cam Gears: $1000
Clutch: $2000
Headers: $1500
Exhaust: $1500

Do you see a pattern here? And the fact that there are only a couple NSX orientated parts dealers means there is not a real good guarentee on the future availablity of those parts should you break something. Of course alot of this stems from the fact that there just isn't a big customer base for aftermarket parts for the C-Series, so its only natural that prices would be high and availablity scarce.

So enter my question. Why not put a proven motor in that can make similar power and doesn't have the drawbacks of a limited production motor?

At first I though about the B-Series, but that didn't last long because of two things mostly. The engine would be 180* from the natural alignment of the C-Series and you would have to work out the issue of a cable shifter (NSX) on a rod actuator (B-Series).

But enter the K-Series. Its aligned in the same direction as the C-Series and they both use cable shifters.

Click the image to open in full size.

Now normally it would seem stupid to go from a V6 to a 4 Cylinder. But its no secret that the K-Series is possibly one of the greatest 4 Cylinders ever made. It may not have the most "power" of 4 cylinders out there, but breathing on its own it puts down impressive numbers. In fact a lightly modified NA K-Series can make as much power as a lightly modified C30. Not to mention the K-Series with just 10 PSI of boost can make as much if not more power then what the SRT-4/STI/Evo engines make with 18-20 PSI.

Extremely effecient motors Click the image to open in full size.

Benefits

Here are some of the benefits I see with the K-Series

1. Stock configurations allow up to 2.4L....not all torque is lost.
2. Hondata K-Pro is extremely good tuning software and much cheaper than AEM EMS and large support base.
3. Aftermarket parts are getting cheaper and more plentiful as time goes by. Not B-Series plentiful, but getting better.
4. Probably weighs what, a 100 pounds less then the C30? Brings the curb weight of the NSX down to what a Civic would weigh. So the K-Series would not be seeing any extra burden.
5. Might improve the slightly aggressive wight bias of the NSX.
6. Adds 6 speed transmission.
7. More room in the engine bay for turbocharger.
8. Turbo's would be way cheaper on a K then a C.
9. You could probably sell the C30 & Tranny for like $3000 and recoup the cost of purchasing the K-Series.
10. A 91 NSX would not need the OBD junk, so as long as the car can pass the sniffer, you'd probably be OK.
11. I personally do not have a big desire for V motors, I like small straight motors (mostly because they are easy to work on).

Installation

There are some issues I could see during installation. The good news is that there would probably be alot more room to work with, since the C-Series is pretty damn wide.

You would definently have to custom build engine mounts. I think you would start by mounting the engine to the subframe and then going from there.

The shift cables would take some work, as they would have to come around the back of the transmission.

I'm guessing that the NSX guages used a similar setup as other 90's Honda's so it might be possible to use them much like 90's Civic or Integra guages can function with a K swap. Although I don't know how the tachometer would function going from a 6 cylinder to a 4 cylinder.

One of the advantages to this swap as opposed to RWD Del Sol's and Integra's you see around here is that this car is already setup for a FWD drivetrain in a mid-engine configuration. So alot of things are already kind of taken care of, such as cooling and suspension.

I'm guessing for CV Joints you would need to make a hybrid with K-Series inner splines and NSX outer splines. That would take some trial and error for sure.


This would give the K-Series a real golden oppurtunity to show what its capabable of. We have plenty of guys making anywhere from 300-700 HP on K-Series and it just gets harder and harder to get traction in the FWD setup. Here you would be able to run an LSD on a something like 235's or better and put it all to the ground.

Of course this is more for Drag racing and street cars. If your into Auto crossing or Road Racing then you probably would not want to lag of a high horsepower 4 cylinder, but for street terrorizing I'm sure it would be a blast.

I've got the Helms for both the NSX, RSX & integra, so it makes it a little easier to visuallize alot of this stuff. Definently need it for the wire harness frankenstien.
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Old 02-04-2007, 07:06 PM   #2
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Default Re: K-Series engine swap into an NSX? (Westrock2000)

Geoff at Full Race, who is one of the best fabricators in the import arena, tried installing a four-cylinder motor (don't remember if it was a K series or an F20) into an NSX and gave up without completing it, as he decided it just wasn't worth the effort.
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Old 02-04-2007, 07:48 PM   #3
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Default Re: K-Series engine swap into an NSX? (Westrock2000)

Excellent post. Geoff and I talked about swapping an F20 in an NSX a while ago and I'm not sure where the whole idea ended up. It's possible. K20 or F20. I'd love to see someone do it.
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Old 02-05-2007, 02:11 AM   #4
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Default Re: K-Series engine swap into an NSX? (Ponyboy)

Well if Pony Boy says its a good post, then I guess its not too bad of an idea Click the image to open in full size.

The F20C isn't really designed to be mounted transversly, did that end up causing problems?

Did he say what some of the issues were? Plus parts are still a little slim for the S2000. Plus I don't see any Hondata support for the F20C. Though if its related to the K-Series enough you might be able to mash the wiring (just a thought)
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Old 02-05-2007, 06:29 AM   #5
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Default Re: K-Series engine swap into an NSX? (Westrock2000)

not a bad thought. a k24/k20 hybrid would do well in that. throw in some f/i and Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 02-05-2007, 01:30 PM   #6
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Default Re: K-Series engine swap into an NSX? (Westrock2000)

IMO a built, turbocharged F20/F22/K20/K24 is the single most hardcore performance mod that can be done to an NSX. To do this right will take ~35-40k.

This would improve weight distribution, offer a very reliable and aftermarket friendly powerplant with KPro available, and introduce a variety of transmission upgrades.

I started on this project about a year and a half ago. I bought the motor, trans, had the car in here, and was about to start the build when i had to make a decision -- either build the NSX or build the R14 (http://www.projectR14.com) so the NSX was sold off, and the R14 was built.

I may still do this later on down the road but right now we're swamped with skyline stuff.
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Old 02-05-2007, 03:14 PM   #7
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Default Re: K-Series engine swap into an NSX? (Full-Race Geoff)

There is a prior posting about some company that was doing this. I dont remember what motor. Everyone laughed at him but supposedly he's a repected member of the community. I don't know if he ever accomplished it.
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Old 02-05-2007, 03:31 PM   #8
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Default Re: K-Series engine swap into an NSX? (Full-Race Geoff)

Well that is a little rich for my blood Click the image to open in full size.

But by right do you mean full blown 700HP and all the labor costs associated with it? Like if a customer asked you to do this?

I would think you could offset a large portion of the cost of the K motor by selling the C motor and trans. If one was willing to do alot of the wiring and actual install (other then maybe making the mounts and a couple other welding things), do you think it could be done for about $10K? Like a lightly turbo'ed K24 around 350-400HP?

There are several rear wheel drive "projects" on this forum that I know didn't cost that much...alot of time and work, but $$$ wasn't sky high.

Now of course I realize there is a difference between a 130 ft-lb stock H22 and a 300 ft-lb turbo K, but the beauty of this swap is that alot of the accomidations are already present in the NSX because its already designed for a midship transverse motor.

You can find high mileage '91 NSX's for about 15-20K. Sell the motor and add another $10K? Also you have to consider than to get a stock NSX up to 350-400HP is going to cost you about $15K anyways....then you still have the high cost of maintance on the C motor (not that it will break down, but if you need parts they are expensive).


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">EDIT: By the way, thank you for taking this seriously. To me it sounded like a win win situation but I kind of figured I'd get nothing but "thats rice", or "what dumbass puts a $20K civic motor is a $90K NSX?!?" I kind of thought I was missing something because it just seemed like too good of an idea for no one to really ever mention it.
<FONT COLOR="white">Search keywords: k20 nsx k20a nsx k24 nsx f20c nsx nsx engine swap k20a1 nsx nsx 4 cylinder 4 cyl nsx 2.0l nsx 2.4l nsx</FONT></TD></TR></TABLE>


Modified by Westrock2000 at 7:47 AM 2/6/2007
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Old 02-06-2007, 03:46 AM   #9
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Default Re: K-Series engine swap into an NSX? (Westrock2000)

pretty interesting
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Old 02-06-2007, 11:46 AM   #10
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Default Re: K-Series engine swap into an NSX? (Westrock2000)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westrock2000
Also you have to consider than to get a stock NSX up to 350-400HP is going to cost you about $15K anyways....
Probably closer to $10-12K, but still expensive. The stock motor will reliably but a bit over 400 hp to the wheels with no internal mods.
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Old 02-06-2007, 05:18 PM   #11
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Default Re: K-Series engine swap into an NSX? (Westrock2000)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westrock2000
I would think you could offset a large portion of the cost of the K motor by selling the C motor and trans. If one was willing to do alot of the wiring and actual install (other then maybe making the mounts and a couple other welding things), do you think it could be done for about $10K? Like a lightly turbo'ed K24 around 350-400HP?
i agree with everything you said. when i posted 35-40k, that includes a built motor, standalone fuel system, built axles/trans, and a twinscroll gt4088R twinscroll etc etc... not a budget build at all.
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Old 02-06-2007, 05:51 PM   #12
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Default Re: K-Series engine swap into an NSX? (Full-Race Geoff)

very interesting thread. Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 02-06-2007, 06:32 PM   #13
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Default Re: K-Series engine swap into an NSX? (Full-Race Geoff)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Full-Race Geoff

i agree with everything you said. when i posted 35-40k, that includes a built motor, standalone fuel system, built axles/trans, and a twinscroll gt4088R twinscroll etc etc... not a budget build at all.

donate the 1st one to me!
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Old 02-06-2007, 06:42 PM   #14
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Default Re: K-Series engine swap into an NSX? (fknfast)

I would love to see this. Reminds me of that top Secret 4 cylinder supra they built a while back. I def csn see a benefit
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Old 02-07-2007, 05:28 AM   #15
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Default Re: K-Series engine swap into an NSX? (TRAY)

I don't typically wander too far outside of the ITR forum anymore, as i don't browse the board nearly as much as i once did. However... i happened to stumble upon this post and couldn't help but read the whole thing. I would love to see a completed F20/22 or K20/24 with boost. It is certainly something i have never given thought to before which is why i believe i find it so interesting. Geoff... DO IT! Click the image to open in full size. Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 02-10-2007, 08:23 AM   #16
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very interesting read!
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Old 02-10-2007, 05:50 PM   #17
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Default

So how much do K20/K24/F20/F22s weigh?

The C30/C32s weighs a bit more than 450lbs.
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Old 02-13-2007, 01:10 PM   #18
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Default Re: (Ponyboy)

I love this idea! Click the image to open in full size. Click the image to open in full size. to the OP!

I'll take mine with a nasty 300 or so HP K24 with ITBs on it.

It would sound so damn good right behind my ears.

Now I have another project to add to my list of project cars I'd love to build if I ever stumble into millions of dollars. Coincidentally, one of them involves building a mid-engined NSX powered CRX so at least I'd have a use for the V6!
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Old 02-13-2007, 03:35 PM   #19
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Quite a noble idea.

I'd be lucky enough to own an older NSX, much less have the ***** to put a K series in one! lol
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Old 02-13-2007, 08:48 PM   #20
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Default Re: (Jonathan_ED3)

Seems like it would cost you just as much if not more to build a 300-400 hp K motor as it would to get that from the C30 ...I guess I just don't see the point.

the C30 is also going to have better TQ which is the NSX weak point anyway.

I have built a few NSXs that Dyno at 345hp and 265TQ for aprox 9500$

I seriously doubt your going to get a K20 installed with those #s for less.
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Old 02-14-2007, 09:52 AM   #21
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Default Re: (Zahntech)

I'll go out on a limb and say that the K-series would cost much less in the long run. I'm currently shopping for an older NSX to do a K24 swap into myself.. The good thing is, I wouldn't have to use an AEM EMS either. Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 02-14-2007, 10:39 AM   #22
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Just curios here but wouldn't this require you to use the K series transmission?

Gearing would be completely different.
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Old 02-14-2007, 11:23 AM   #23
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Default Re: (locash)

Quote:
Originally Posted by locash
I'll go out on a limb and say that the K-series would cost much less in the long run.
How do you figure? Keep in mind that C series motors typically get 150K-180K miles between rebuilds. There is a guy here in TX that sprayed (at every opportunity) a 150 shot of N2O on his for many years and he got 180K miles before finally needing new rings. There is just not enough expereience with K motors to say if they are as reliable as the C30/32.

And again, I know from personal experience that anyone with basic fab skills can get 350-400 whp out of a C motor for about ten grand. I just don't see the swap costing much less than that when all is said and done.
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Old 02-14-2007, 01:28 PM   #24
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Default Re: (Zahntech)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahntech
Seems like it would cost you just as much if not more to build a 300-400 hp K motor as it would to get that from the C30 ...I guess I just don't see the point.
I don't disagree with you, as I even mentioned a budget a couple posts back of about $10-$15K.

However for me it has some personal interest. For starters I am not a big fan of V motors. The C30/32 are excellent V6's (especially for the time frame they came out), but for me I like small straight motors. I almost always look at cars that have I4's. And straight 5 & 6's are not as abundant and affordable to mod. But I think more than anything I like 4 cylinder engines.

It also poses some uniqueness and some experience. Since you guys are members of this great forum I can guess that you have an understanding of what I mean when I say that building the car is just as fun as driving the car. Some of my best memories of my cars (actually most) are the times when parts were scattered all over the driveway and garage.

Now surely keeping the C-Series in the NSX would clearly save alot of time and frustration. But again I do see some advantage to the K-Series. If you hang around NSX Prime you will see that alot of poeple there are not really into the hardcore performance modding. There are only a couple poeple that have actually ripped into the engine. So there is not alot of experience there. And I don't blame them...not many poeple would be brave enough to rip into an engine in a $80K car....I mean what could the average Joe possibly do to improve it?? Wheres the K-Series already has a ton of information and options available and its only been about 5 years....but alot of that can be credited to poeple applying knowledge gained on the B-Series to guide them on the K-Series.

But you have to admit the K Series is a very close engine in terms of performance capability.....it is an exceptional 4 cylinder. A K24 hybrid can dyno just a little lower than a C30. And we have already seen plenty of K-Series dyno in the upper 300's with a mild turbo setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nsxxtreme
Just curios here but wouldn't this require you to use the K series transmission?

Gearing would be completely different.
Yes, you could also convert an early 90's NSX to 6 speed at the same time. And ya no more getting up to highway cruising speed in 2nd Click the image to open in full size.


Modified by Westrock2000 at 4:58 PM 2/14/2007
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Old 02-14-2007, 04:49 PM   #25
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Default Re: (Westrock2000)

"Yes, you could also convert an early 90's NSX to 6 speed at the same time. And ya no more getting up to highway cruising speed in 2nd "

I kinda like being able to out pull an M3 because he has to shift to 3rd to reach 80 mph and I don't Click the image to open in full size.


I guess because I work on people's cars allday everyday I prefer to have my car in one piece so I can drive it. Click the image to open in full size.

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