Bense's B-series transmission write-up page (i don't know where else to put this)

[Bense]

I've decided that I don't want this information to be part of honda-tech. This page is written by me and I want the rights to it. Here's a link to my personal journal entry with everything that was posted here: http://thebense.livejournal.com/56502.html no crazy images, no popups, just raw html I'm sorry to have to do this. Modified by Bense at 3:53 AM 2/22/2006

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[Bense]

hm, i would have thought there would have been at least some sort of response.

[rodimus]

good sh!t.

i say STICKY this mods

[Bense]

Originally Posted by EVOL

good sh!t.

i say STICKY this mods

i hope so, cause i see a "what transmission should i use with this setup" thread about 4 times a week.

[-ILLICIT-]

cheers man that is soo handy, not only for performance nuts, but also for figuring out how g/boxes work a bit and the ratios etc of your car
-|saac

[Bense]

Originally Posted by illicit_

cheers man that is soo handy, not only for performance nuts, but also for figuring out how g/boxes work a bit and the ratios etc of your car
-|saac

thanks. Yeah, anybody can read it and understand the concepts. even *gasp* domestic v8 guys

[Bense]

any mods wanna give me a sweet "gear whore" under my user name

[Mohsin]

v.gd info.

[too much vtAK]

excellent write up, bense. geez. put down that calculator!!

[RACEPAK]

[Honda Bull]

Originally Posted by Bense

And please for goodness sake, we need a transmission forum. I see so many of the same questions in different forums. B-series aren't limited to integras, they also are swapped into civics. People don't only turbo them. They do NA tweaks. I see the same question asked over and over again but it's in different forums.

This is very true. We definately need a transmission section here on Honda-Tech.

[anony95ex]

Originally Posted by Bense

With that said, lets think about a domestic v8. Yeah, they have lots of torque, but most of them can't rev over 6000. For demonstration purposes lets see how much 200ft/lbs at 4000rpm really is.

HP = (200) * (4000) / (5252)

HP = 152.32

Now 100 ft lbs at 8000 rpm.

HP = (100) * (8000) / (5252)

HP = 152.32

That's great and all, but 200 ft-lbs is more like a domestic V6, V8's are more like 300+ ft-lbs. I see your point though.

What changing the numbers on the tach won't do, however, is increase the practicality of the vehicle. I'd rather have a GM 3.8-liter V6 that makes gobs of torque off-idle and then peeters off at 5000 rpm than a Civic that has to be wound out to 5000 RPM all the time, just for the practicality of driving around town. Changing all the gear ratios in the tranny would make that high-RPM power peak come up faster, but it would decrease top speed and highway effeciency.

For the sake of race cars and making a lot of power, you're absolutely right, you want to make torque past 5250. I think for a daily driven vehicle, however, it's a different story...you want low-RPM power and torque, not high-rpm horsepower.

[Bense]

Originally Posted by anony95ex

That's great and all, but 200 ft-lbs is more like a domestic V6, V8's are more like 300+ ft-lbs. I see your point though.

What changing the numbers on the tach won't do, however, is increase the practicality of the vehicle. I'd rather have a GM 3.8-liter V6 that makes gobs of torque off-idle and then peeters off at 5000 rpm than a Civic that has to be wound out to 5000 RPM all the time, just for the practicality of driving around town. Changing all the gear ratios in the tranny would make that high-RPM power peak come up faster, but it would decrease top speed and highway effeciency.

For the sake of race cars and making a lot of power, you're absolutely right, you want to make torque past 5250. I think for a daily driven vehicle, however, it's a different story...you want low-RPM power and torque, not high-rpm horsepower.

i realize that domestic v8s put down a lot more than 200ft lbs. Like I said, for demonstration purposes only...

and like I said, yes the smaller motor may have half the torque, but it doubles the gear ratio of the larger motor, and doubles the redline of it. Thus putting down the same amount of torque to the wheels. Remember, just because you have close gear ratios doesn't mean that you necessarily sacrifice cruising rpms. If one was making a custom gear set they could start with the stock 5th gear (or 6th) and pull the lower gears closer to it.

[work-in-progrex]

good write up... def some formulas i need to keep..

you made my favorites

thanks
marc

[Bense]

added rpm drops of all transmissions, as well as how to graph on a ti83

[smokey2.0]

a cable ls 5th gear(YS1), with fit a hydro b series transmission. the one that does not fit is the 90 ls, wich is marked A1! the reason why it won't fit, is because it's a small spline transmission like the jdm Y1/J1/S1 transmission! i hope that clears the ls 5th, part of your post! BTW great thread

[Bense]

smokey2.0, are cable mainshafts/countershafts swappable into hydro cases?

[smokey2.0]

Originally Posted by Bense

smokey2.0, are cable mainshafts/countershafts swappable into hydro cases?

only the YS1, big spline! i'm running a itr FD/LSD on my gsr YS1(with some modification to the bell housing), i have also ran a hydro LS 5th gear in that same YS1!

[punkracer]

THIS THREAD IS AWSOME CAN WE HAVE A TRANNY FORUM ........WE HAVE A COMPUTER GAME FORUM >>>COME ON FOR PETES SAKE.....it will allow H-T t0 grow

[track_assassin]

wow..nice write up. i was thinking what gears would go good for my set up. now i can figure what i have, what i want, then what gears i need.

WAYY UP.

[Synchro]

Two thumbs up......Smokey has it right about the YS-1....I have one two!

[Bense]

if any one wants to donate any busted b-series transmissions for more research i'll pay for shipping

[anony95ex]

Originally Posted by Bense

and like I said, yes the smaller motor may have half the torque, but it doubles the gear ratio of the larger motor, and doubles the redline of it. Thus putting down the same amount of torque to the wheels. Remember, just because you have close gear ratios doesn't mean that you necessarily sacrifice cruising rpms. If one was making a custom gear set they could start with the stock 5th gear (or 6th) and pull the lower gears closer to it.

I realize this, but the practicality of daily driving demands that torque be available in the low-RPM range, regardless of whether a higher-revving smaller engine can put down the same power at double the RPM. On paper, my Civic makes just as much power as a Saturn I used to own, but it makes it at more than 1000 RPM past the Saturn's redline. The Saturn was a much easier day-to-day car...this Honda is really annoying, having to wind it out all the time on my daily commute. I'm sure anyone else who has a rush-hour commute in traffic would agree. Every time I see someone illustrate the details of torque, gear ratios, RPM, etc...this little point seems to get left out.

Also, pulling the lower gears closer to the highest gear would allow for good lower-RPM cruising at high speed, but the taller ratios would sacrifice low-speed acceleration. A perfect custom gearset (in my mind) would be a 6-speed box with a 1-3 closely spaced and low (numerically high) ratio, 4th with a 1:1 ratio, 6th would be very tall, and 5th would split the difference. The final drive could then be made taller or shorter depending on the needs of the vehicle...tire size would also be a factor. The exact numbers of the ratios would have to be determined by the engine's powerband.

[Bense]

Originally Posted by anony95ex

I realize this, but the practicality of daily driving demands that torque be available in the low-RPM range, regardless of whether a higher-revving smaller engine can put down the same power at double the RPM. On paper, my Civic makes just as much power as a Saturn I used to own, but it makes it at more than 1000 RPM past the Saturn's redline. The Saturn was a much easier day-to-day car...this Honda is really annoying, having to wind it out all the time on my daily commute. I'm sure anyone else who has a rush-hour commute in traffic would agree. Every time I see someone illustrate the details of torque, gear ratios, RPM, etc...this little point seems to get left out.

Also, pulling the lower gears closer to the highest gear would allow for good lower-RPM cruising at high speed, but the taller ratios would sacrifice low-speed acceleration. A perfect custom gearset (in my mind) would be a 6-speed box with a 1-3 closely spaced and low (numerically high) ratio, 4th with a 1:1 ratio, 6th would be very tall, and 5th would split the difference. The final drive could then be made taller or shorter depending on the needs of the vehicle...tire size would also be a factor. The exact numbers of the ratios would have to be determined by the engine's powerband.

so what was the final drive ratio of your saturn?

[anony95ex]

Originally Posted by Bense

so what was the final drive ratio of your saturn?

No clue. If it means anything, the RPM at a given cruising speed in 5th (saturn was a stick, with bigger tires) was within 500 rpm of the Civic's automagic in OD. It's safe to say the gear ratios throughout were close.

Torque output of both engines are as follows:

Saturn - 122 @ 4800

Honda - 106 @ 5200

Low-end torque makes a car feel faster off the line, and it helps a lot in stop-and-go. Regardless of gear ratios, it's not comfortable to be winding a car out to 4500-5500 RPM just to keep pace. It's not just Honda motors either. Take the DOHC 4.6L in the 99-01 Mustang Cobra for example. It screams from 4000-7000 RPM, but it doesn't have much below 2000. My SOHC 4.6, on the other hand, has great torque off-idle, but it's got a stock rev limiter at 6200 and doesn't make as much power above 5000 as the Cobra motor....thus the Cobra is faster in a race. However, the SOHC GT is easier to drive in day-to-day traffic simply because it's got more off-idle. GT drivers that take a 99-01 Cobra for a drive the first time are generally shocked at how much less off-idle torque there is...I know I was. Not that the Cobra is lacking in the low end, it's still a 4.6L V8 after all. This is a good comparison because both come from the factory with the same transmission gear ratios and final drive.