The D16Y5 / D16B5 Civic CX Project PART 2

[Bense]

Okay, this is going to be the last and final revision of this project/idea. This project idea was the first one that I actually got to follow through on, so it was a biggg deal to me. I initially had all these ideas that I wanted to try out, but I was just broke. Anyways. Basically, there's three VTEC-E engines: D15Z1: 92hp, small ports, 9.3:1cr or something 84.5mm stroke, 137mm rod, 75mm bore. TINY ports, TINY valves. D16y5: 115hp, same head as y8, 9.3ish compression, y8 style intake manifold 90mm stroke, 137mm rod, 75mm bore. SAME HEAD AS Y8!!! CHECK THE PART NUMBERS! D16B5: 106hp, basically it's a high compression d16y5 that's made to run off of CNG. Compressed Natural Gas, the stuff that your hotwater heater and oven run off of. For more about the civicgx pm me. It's 12.5:1cr, 90mm stroke, 137mm rod, 75mm bore. for greater detail of these engines go here: http://bensebuilt.livejournal.com/2006/09/06/ ################################################## ################## So....Why did I decide to go this route? Well, I wanted to learn. Remember, I was broke, so the idea of overall engine efficency grabbed my attention. I was just a young nerd that wanted to play with my car and get my hands dirty. (Funny, cause I say that like I'm no longer a young nerd ) I already had a d-series, so "why not" I sought out to create a transmission that had short 1-4 gears, with a tall 5th gear for the MPGs. As I read up on engine ideas, I realized that most of the ideas for the tree-huggers with their d15z1 VXs were similiar to the good ole boy rednecks with their all motor max power builds lol. Anyways, not to get on a big tangent about the similiarities about the max power and less fuel consumption. Lets compare both VTEC and VTEC-E based off of my opinion. And as with anything, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. VTEC: optimized for midrange to high rpm power. Disadvantage being not optimized in the mid range VTEC-E: optimized for low end efficiency and mid range rpm power. Disadvantage being higher rpms I'm not going to get into tuning with VTEC. That's been covered many many times and the information can be easily found if you want to know. However, tuning with VTEC-E is going to be different, and from what I've learned, if you're interested in having the best of both extremes, this could be the route to choose from. Because of the design of the camshaft, the "wild" high rpm lobe is always active, even in stock form at 1000rpms. The difference is that before "vtec engages" the wild lobe is only controlling one single valve. If a high performance cam is to be used, your vtec engagement point will have to be set higher as the single valve should provide power further into the powerband than before. Anyways, the more exciting part is the roller rockers that the VTEC-E heads have, that in theory could allow for a HUGE cam that would normally destory the rocker pads. And the even more exciting part is the d16b5. To put this into perspective I spend $375 for a 12.5:1cr engine that had 8,000 miles on it. Granted it's CNG, but all I had to do to convert it was put a complete y8 intake manifold on it. Or a z6 manifold, whatever! So that's what I did, it's just I blew it up prematurely cause I didn't understand ignition timing lol. Oh well, lesson learned. I'm tired of typing about this. so that's about all i'm gonna put for now lol. Last edit 03/26/2007 16:05 EST

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[Dancing is Forbidden]

Ohhh ohhhh Can I help?! PALEASE!?!??!

[Bense]

nobody is excited for my research?

[litterbox]

:In for the read after school!:

[xCIVICx]

ummmm have fun?

[SVOboy]

Woot, talking to you now.

[Dancing is Forbidden]

I can't wait to get this "beast" on my engine stand!

[Spade]

Depending on your budget, you might want to consider the Edelbrock SOHC Intake Manifold.

It's damn near the same power through the band as the Y8, that is, until 5500, then it climbs quite a bit better than the Y8 and actually (on a stock D16Y8) produced a clean 5.5 whp more and it's got a lot more room to go if you feel the need to raise your redline, you'd want to budget in the Victor X manifold.

VTEC-E engages anywhere from 2700-3000 depending on pedal pressure, you'll be quite fine as there is little difference in the 300 rpms.

Keep the stock Y8 3 layer compression gasket, an unmodified Y8 gasket from Honda will gain my trust a thousand times over a home modified one.

You'll gain the most power out of everything, when you get your custom cam made. That will be the largest difference in anything you do on that engine. Other than proper tuning which, could make a very large difference if it's quite off.

Once your done putting that thing together, don't drive it until it'd dyno tuned, if you have to, tow the car to the shop and tune it. That way you're not running super lean or super rich the whole way to the shop and, you're not tempted to "feel things out" when it very well could be in that condition.

A little bit of patience will save a lot of headaces. <----live by it.

[HondaEJ7]

definately in for the read, im very interested because i thought my 97 hx had little or no hope. now i guess it has potential with just about 110,000 miles on it..i got a 1994 dx tranny with 100,000. should i put that in or look for a y8 tranny? thanks

[Bense]

Originally Posted by Spade

Depending on your budget, you might want to consider the Edelbrock SOHC Intake Manifold.

It's damn near the same power through the band as the Y8, that is, until 5500, then it climbs quite a bit better than the Y8 and actually (on a stock D16Y8) produced a clean 5.5 whp more and it's got a lot more room to go if you feel the need to raise your redline, you'd want to budget in the Victor X manifold.

VTEC-E engages anywhere from 2700-3000 depending on pedal pressure, you'll be quite fine as there is little difference in the 300 rpms.

Keep the stock Y8 3 layer compression gasket, an unmodified Y8 gasket from Honda will gain my trust a thousand times over a home modified one.

You'll gain the most power out of everything, when you get your custom cam made. That will be the largest difference in anything you do on that engine. Other than proper tuning which, could make a very large difference if it's quite off.

Once your done putting that thing together, don't drive it until it'd dyno tuned, if you have to, tow the car to the shop and tune it. That way you're not running super lean or super rich the whole way to the shop and, you're not tempted to "feel things out" when it very well could be in that condition.

A little bit of patience will save a lot of headaces. <----live by it.

i've already purchased the d16y8 intake manifold and have no interest in paying for another one.
i was thinking about tuning with crome and using a p07 fuel map with a 5wire o2 sensor and having vtec set at 3000. then after 3600 having the fuel map switch to p72 tuning. I know very little about ecu tuning but it seems like that would work fine for now. anyone knowledgable on this subject feel free to instruct me otherwise. as of now (after realizing how much honda bearings cost and future plans for boost) i've decided that i will just put this head on my d15b7 block with a camgear to overcome the d15block/d16head issue. hmmm

[Spade]

Originally Posted by HondaEJ7

definately in for the read, im very interested because i thought my 97 hx had little or no hope. now i guess it has potential with just about 110,000 miles on it..i got a 1994 dx tranny with 100,000. should i put that in or look for a y8 tranny? thanks

For the future, let's try and keep this on the specific topic at hand.
However, I will say, the DX is shorter geared but I'd sell it (or keep it for spare parts) and go EX tranny shopping.

Originally Posted by Gordon Liddy

i've already purchased the d16y8 intake manifold and have no interest in paying for another one.
i was thinking about tuning with crome and using a p07 fuel map with a 5wire o2 sensor and having vtec set at 3000. then after 3600 having the fuel map switch to p72 tuning. I know very little about ecu tuning but it seems like that would work fine for now. anyone knowledgable on this subject feel free to instruct me otherwise. as of now (after realizing how much honda bearings cost and future plans for boost) i've decided that i will just put this head on my d15b7 block with a camgear to overcome the d15block/d16head issue. hmmm

No worries on the intake then.
As far as tuning goes, you're entering unknown territory so you're pretty much going to have to wing it and keep an eye on your air/fuel as you go and slowly modify your settings one step at a time with your VAFC and distributor.

Just take your time.

[Dancing is Forbidden]

If he goes CROME (not familiar with the capabilities of it) he won't need a VAFC correct? Not to worry Andrew, I have a PLX now so we can monitor the a/f while tuning it. I also don't see the 5 wire neccessary unless you have something to monitor it with.

BUT-with CROME we should be able to set vtec @2800 which would be ideal IMO. Spade, with the a6 block am I going to have to worry about cam timing? Thats about the only thing I'm not sure of. I have done mini-me's in the past and know how to set the timing on those...

[Bense]

I am pulling <FONT SIZE="6">my</FONT> contributions off of this website. bensebuilt.com coming soon.


Modified by Bense at 6:52 AM 8/31/2006

[Bense]

anyone know about the distributor?

[Bense]

bump for distributor

[1993civicex]

keep obd1 its more responsive to simple upgrades and easier to tune

[Bense]

Originally Posted by 1993civicex

keep obd1 its more responsive to simple upgrades and easier to tune

that's the plan

[SOHCwarrior]

Great job on the research.
I have been thinkin of the exact setup you are going to do. I just picked up a full hx swap the other day and am in the midst of changing all the gaskets and developing a game plan. Also much props on the hybrid tranny as I have also built a hybrid tranny but didn't properly check the clearances and will some day get back into it and change the gears again with my ever growing sohc tranny collection.

Some of my my HX thoughts:
I know (it seems) your building more for power, but I'm thinking overall efficiency. All the mods you listed are ones I've been planning for, but now that I actually have the motor I am second guessing.
With the ecu I'm sure you could run a P28, but the HX ecu is designed to take advantage of the wide-band o2. Which I'm sure is how it gets its great gas mileage (maybe even great range of power). And that is also what I'm looking for (gas mileage). As far as the p07 I have both types of p07 ecus, the one with the same board as the p28 and the one with the mutant board. The p07 ecu uses a different 5-wire o2 and from my knowledge (it's been a while since I was on pgmfi.org) noone has quite figured how to tune with the stock 5-wire rendering an ecu using the 5 wire, useless without modifying it to not use the 5-wire. I have the po7 and a chip burner and was working on getting my datalogging up, which hopefully I can work on once the motor is up.
But for now my choice is to stay with the stock hx ecu and go with an vtec controller.

My other concern is with the pistons, I was thinking of d16a6 pistons for a good street compression ratio, but am not sure how this will run with the ecu and affect gas mileage. I also think I read somewhere that the hx head is designed to have some sort of swirl effect in order to create better combustion at lower rpms. So I'm now questioning changing the intake mani, t.b., and pistons thinking they may not only hurt mileage, but may somehow disrupt the harmony created by honda engineers far smarter than myself, and end up making less power.

But the HX definately shows mass amounts of potential and it's good to see someone else is interested.

[Bense]

I am pulling <FONT SIZE="6">my</FONT> contributions off of this website. bensebuilt.com coming soon.


Modified by Bense at 6:53 AM 8/31/2006

[Bense]

i figured it was time for an update.

I placed a huge order for parts from honda:
d16y5 timing belt
d16y8 head gasket
b16a2 throttlebody gasket
valve cover gasket set
misc bolts and seals


Everything is now completely bolted up to the cylinder head. Whereas it was several parts just laying around on my bedroom floor, it is now one big solid unit. A p06 ecu (spare) was up in New Jersey for the past week or two getting chipped. I should be getting it in the mail today. This is all getting very exciting now, cause I have very few parts to get. All i need to get is a fuel pressure regulator for the y5/y7/y8 fuel rail, a VTEC solenoid plug, and spark plug wires.

Now that I have a new job making more money, the overall pace of this project is going to be accelerated significantly. More updates to come.

[Bense]

still keeping this thread alive.

I have acquired pretty much everything now. I only need to get a few things until this thing is going to be swapped on

parts needed:
d16y5 spark plug wires (anyone have any recomendations for some good reasonably affordable ones?)
VTEC solenoid plug
injector rubber rings (the ones that go in the intake manifold, not the o-rings but the bigger grommet things)
1 vtec solenoid bolt
d16y* fuel pressure regulator

i'm setting a deadline of jan 21st for the head swap, cause that's when the HT meet is and that's when i'm going to be putting my car on the dyno

[Jizzmaster Zero]

Good luck man, I love my Z6/Y5-T engine! Incredible power and gas mileage.

[HiProfile]

If you are using injectors that use larger/taller seals (DSM's, Dekas, etc - 5/8" OD, any height), I could hook you up for $10 shipped. I'm using Buna-N rubber seals on my Dekas, working perfect for 1k miles.

The reason the y5 doesn't make much power is due to the low lift/duration, and probably due to the restrictive manifold and head ports. See if you can get the cams reground for more power, although rollers would have a weird profile vs follower cams - let the MFG know that. Anyways, I'd suspect that oversized valves (at least on the intake valve that changes) would help too.

BTW - that other 'untuned' y5 motor is making more tq than hp due to the weak cam and a tiny t25 turbo. A 50trim T3, a better cam, and a mild port job would really open it up.


If I didn't already have another z6 head, I'd have this in mind for a boosted beater.

[HiProfile]

BTW, forgot to mention this. Back in the early 80's, a certain company started showing the engine community it's so-called 'soft-head' design. It uses a lean combustion due to LOTS of swirl designed into their head & pistons.

here's the link, articles at the bottom:
http://www.theoldone.com/articles/

[Bense]

anoter thing i found out recently

the d16z6, d16y5, d16y7, and d16y8 all use the same size valves of 30 for the intake and 26 for the exhaust.

As I have no clue as to cam specs (haven't researched it) I wonder what would be a good spec to have it reground to, as I wouldn't have to worry about it being too lump because of the vtec-e function as well as the roller rockers. Who offers regrinds and who does good jobs with them? How much does this service run?