K series liability and destruction testing
07-08-2005, 07:41 AM
#1
K series liability and destruction testing
I thought I should share this information with you guys.
Someone from the UK (Simon , did the following tests on a k20a2 (rsx type s motor) and k20a (JDM integra type r)and posted them on my website. Here's the results
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
First the K20A2, this was out of a UK Civic Type R, it had dome some 5K miles before I got hold of it...
We ran it for just over 4 hours at between 8,250 and 8,750 RPM on 100% throttle, when this happened!
one of the inlet valves snapped off just below the collet, dropping the valve down the bore (in the pic, the head is just rested back on it's seat).
looking at the bit's that are left, there is no clear reason why the valve failed, the break is clean and it's not where we expected it to fail (was expecting the head to fall off or the like).
clearly it's made a mess of the piston and head, but that's the total extent of the damage.
The K20A was next up.
this was subjected to the same treatment, after 4 hours it was fine, so we increased the revs to 9,000, then 9,250, and kept going till...
this ultimatly went big time!
one piston has completely dissapeared (there are bit's of it all around the engine and spat out the inlet and exhaust), and the other was beeten into a ball of ali (placed ontop of another piston in the pic)
one of the rods has snapped, and the remaining bit punched out the side of the cylinder bore, also one of the valve heads has got pushed ou the side of the block by the crank.
this happend at ~9,700 (hard to be exact!) but at this point it had been running non-stop for some 6 hours at WOT.
clearly looking at what is left, they cannot stand these sorts of revs, below 9,000 it was OK, however, how much further before this happens is in the lap of the gods...
what you make of this is up to you, suffice to say that for a stock engine we are not going to be running them in a race car at over 8,600.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Someone from the UK (Simon , did the following tests on a k20a2 (rsx type s motor) and k20a (JDM integra type r)and posted them on my website. Here's the results
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
First the K20A2, this was out of a UK Civic Type R, it had dome some 5K miles before I got hold of it...
We ran it for just over 4 hours at between 8,250 and 8,750 RPM on 100% throttle, when this happened!
one of the inlet valves snapped off just below the collet, dropping the valve down the bore (in the pic, the head is just rested back on it's seat).
looking at the bit's that are left, there is no clear reason why the valve failed, the break is clean and it's not where we expected it to fail (was expecting the head to fall off or the like).
clearly it's made a mess of the piston and head, but that's the total extent of the damage.
The K20A was next up.
this was subjected to the same treatment, after 4 hours it was fine, so we increased the revs to 9,000, then 9,250, and kept going till...
this ultimatly went big time!
one piston has completely dissapeared (there are bit's of it all around the engine and spat out the inlet and exhaust), and the other was beeten into a ball of ali (placed ontop of another piston in the pic)
one of the rods has snapped, and the remaining bit punched out the side of the cylinder bore, also one of the valve heads has got pushed ou the side of the block by the crank.
this happend at ~9,700 (hard to be exact!) but at this point it had been running non-stop for some 6 hours at WOT.
clearly looking at what is left, they cannot stand these sorts of revs, below 9,000 it was OK, however, how much further before this happens is in the lap of the gods...
what you make of this is up to you, suffice to say that for a stock engine we are not going to be running them in a race car at over 8,600.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
07-08-2005, 08:18 AM
#4
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Re: K series liability and destruction testing (Nikos)
Hold on a second. The top two pix look like the good piston has a high pent-roof style piston found in the Type R.
The bottom two pictures show a flatter top piston.
DOES HE HAVE THE TYPE R AND TYPE S MOTORS CROSSED UP OR WHAT?
distructive testing is good for end users. thanks for the data points!
The bottom two pictures show a flatter top piston.
DOES HE HAVE THE TYPE R AND TYPE S MOTORS CROSSED UP OR WHAT?
distructive testing is good for end users. thanks for the data points!
07-08-2005, 08:40 AM
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Re: K series liability and destruction testing (Nikos)
Thanks for info do you have anymore info from this test was it done under load>? engine dyno chassis dyno what was the engine tune etc?
do you have anymore info from this test was it done under load>? engine dyno chassis dyno what was the engine tune etc?
07-08-2005, 08:46 AM
#6
Re: K series liability and destruction testing (Casey@Burns)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
dyno was configured to cycle the engine through a pre-set rev range at WOT, then log all the temps/pressures on the way, we has an oil cooler from hell on them so as to eliminate any oil temp issues (oil held at 110C), same for the water (86C) etc etc.
Why?
basically, I am racing with one in endurance races from 100mins to a full 24H race in a couple of months time, Having an engine let go when out racing is not an option, appart from the pain and heartache of DNF's, you get to learn very little as by the time you get the car back most of the detail you needed to know has gone and all you have is a smashed up engine.
People have gon on an on about what they will take/not take, so I decided to find out.
only problem with this is that it's just two engines, and this cannot be used as some kind of garentee that all will behave the same, that said, it's a good indication of what they will put up with.
currently, I am limiting the race cars engine to 8,600 which seems like a reasonable compromise (assuming that you can 100% control the oil and water temps). I will be trying the same tests with uprated internals as an when we decide which way to go.
one thing that stands out for us in all this is that the valve stems are painfully thin, so we are looking about for a more robust valve at the moment. (interestinly, the K20A2 engine showed zero sighns of any valve contact with the pistons etc. with stock springs.)
</TD></TR></TABLE>
dyno was configured to cycle the engine through a pre-set rev range at WOT, then log all the temps/pressures on the way, we has an oil cooler from hell on them so as to eliminate any oil temp issues (oil held at 110C), same for the water (86C) etc etc.
Why?
basically, I am racing with one in endurance races from 100mins to a full 24H race in a couple of months time, Having an engine let go when out racing is not an option, appart from the pain and heartache of DNF's, you get to learn very little as by the time you get the car back most of the detail you needed to know has gone and all you have is a smashed up engine.
People have gon on an on about what they will take/not take, so I decided to find out.
only problem with this is that it's just two engines, and this cannot be used as some kind of garentee that all will behave the same, that said, it's a good indication of what they will put up with.
currently, I am limiting the race cars engine to 8,600 which seems like a reasonable compromise (assuming that you can 100% control the oil and water temps). I will be trying the same tests with uprated internals as an when we decide which way to go.
one thing that stands out for us in all this is that the valve stems are painfully thin, so we are looking about for a more robust valve at the moment. (interestinly, the K20A2 engine showed zero sighns of any valve contact with the pistons etc. with stock springs.)
</TD></TR></TABLE>
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07-08-2005, 11:02 AM
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Re: K series liability and destruction testing (Nikos)
how can you run at WOT continuously.. don't you have to back off the throttle to hold the revs?
07-08-2005, 11:10 AM
#10
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Re: K series liability and destruction testing (mstewar)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mstewar »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how can you run at WOT continuously.. don't you have to back off the throttle to hold the revs?
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you can hold the rpms if you put a load on the engine....so that is 9000 rpms with a load....
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you can hold the rpms if you put a load on the engine....so that is 9000 rpms with a load....
07-08-2005, 02:58 PM
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Re: K series liability and destruction testing (mstewar)
i think this is very cool.
Jimmy- who has a smart *** comment to say but is feeling nice and will refrain from saying it
Jimmy- who has a smart *** comment to say but is feeling nice and will refrain from saying it
07-08-2005, 03:57 PM
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Re: K series liability and destruction testing (C-speed Ricer)
That's kind of odd, because that's how they do durability testing at the manufacturer. 100% throttle at full load and full RPMs. Usually they last for days.
I suppose he did take it past he stock redline... and maybe it was modified to make more power?
I suppose he did take it past he stock redline... and maybe it was modified to make more power?
07-08-2005, 06:46 PM
#17
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Re: K series liability and destruction testing (Track rat)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Track rat »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">OK, so what did we learn here? Don't operate a K series beyond it's rev limit... (duh). </TD></TR></TABLE>
Thank you. I was wondering when someone would say that.
Thank you. I was wondering when someone would say that.
07-08-2005, 07:31 PM
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Re: K series liability and destruction testing (Track rat)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Track rat »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">OK, so what did we learn here? Don't operate a K series beyond it's rev limit... (duh). </TD></TR></TABLE>
lol that's exactly what I was thinking, too. Actually I’d be curious to know if there exists any stock engine out there that can go for 6 hours at wot and full load while operating at 1500 rpm over redline like that K20A was subjected to. If nothing else, I think these tests showed that those two K series motors are definitely good and durable?
lol that's exactly what I was thinking, too. Actually I’d be curious to know if there exists any stock engine out there that can go for 6 hours at wot and full load while operating at 1500 rpm over redline like that K20A was subjected to. If nothing else, I think these tests showed that those two K series motors are definitely good and durable?
07-08-2005, 07:33 PM
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Re: K series liability and destruction testing (Track rat)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Track rat »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">OK, so what did we learn here? Don't operate a K series beyond it's rev limit... (duh). </TD></TR></TABLE>
ya, i think this test just validates it. But many people have been saying it for some time now.
Nikos i think what you have done with your site is freakn great
ya, i think this test just validates it. But many people have been saying it for some time now.
Nikos i think what you have done with your site is freakn great
07-08-2005, 08:02 PM
#20
Re: K series liability and destruction testing (slammed_93_hatch)
Thank you for the kind words.
To be honest, there is a mystery about the k series motors. In the US, new zealand, england and Japan there have been a few K series motors that died while being road raced. Some of these failures happened at high G turns while a few other failures happened at the rev limit or below.
The major problem we have with these failures is that when these "forensic" specialists go back to look at what failed first and what happened, there isn't much left to look at. As you probably have read, some people blame the rods, while others blame the size of the bearings which are 20% smaller than b series etc...
Another approach suggests that the k20a oil pump is working very hard at high rpm thus creating bubbles that cause starvation etc... There are currently a few products abou to hit the market that will appeal mostly to the average Joe with a k20a that is worried about road racing his motor. The option of a $2000-$3000 oil system is not really feasible.
A test like that one here, really tells me that the k series rods are not as bad as we think. The bearings need to be lubricated at all times and I believe this test prooves that.
Unfortunatelly, skunk2 and other teams are not going to go public with this information, but believe me that when we find the truth, we are going to let you guys know.. so you can go to sleep in peace
To be honest, there is a mystery about the k series motors. In the US, new zealand, england and Japan there have been a few K series motors that died while being road raced. Some of these failures happened at high G turns while a few other failures happened at the rev limit or below.
The major problem we have with these failures is that when these "forensic" specialists go back to look at what failed first and what happened, there isn't much left to look at. As you probably have read, some people blame the rods, while others blame the size of the bearings which are 20% smaller than b series etc...
Another approach suggests that the k20a oil pump is working very hard at high rpm thus creating bubbles that cause starvation etc... There are currently a few products abou to hit the market that will appeal mostly to the average Joe with a k20a that is worried about road racing his motor. The option of a $2000-$3000 oil system is not really feasible.
A test like that one here, really tells me that the k series rods are not as bad as we think. The bearings need to be lubricated at all times and I believe this test prooves that.
Unfortunatelly, skunk2 and other teams are not going to go public with this information, but believe me that when we find the truth, we are going to let you guys know.. so you can go to sleep in peace
07-08-2005, 10:58 PM
#21
Cavitation caused by the stock pump pumping the oil 'too' fast at 8500RPM+ would be eliminated with a dry-sump...would it not? Or is this the $2000 option thats not feasible?
07-09-2005, 05:03 AM
#22
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Re: dry sump
dry sump is very expensive (i'd say definitely more than 2k); and most all of the sanctioning bodies that we amatuers run in would not allow a dry sump system; heck, some of them won't allow a non-stock pan!
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chrisw85 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Cavitation caused by the stock pump pumping the oil 'too' fast at 8500RPM+ would be eliminated with a dry-sump...would it not? Or is this the $2000 option thats not feasible?</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chrisw85 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Cavitation caused by the stock pump pumping the oil 'too' fast at 8500RPM+ would be eliminated with a dry-sump...would it not? Or is this the $2000 option thats not feasible?</TD></TR></TABLE>
07-09-2005, 05:35 AM
#23
H-T Order of Merit
Re: K series liability and destruction testing (BA5)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BA5 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That's kind of odd, because that's how they do durability testing at the manufacturer. 100% throttle at full load and full RPMs. Usually they last for days.
I suppose he did take it past he stock redline... and maybe it was modified to make more power? </TD></TR></TABLE>
He was probably trying to verify for himself and his own build procedures the apocryphal information that continues to leak out of both Honda and Spoon about the durability of the K20 versions.
I suppose he did take it past he stock redline... and maybe it was modified to make more power? </TD></TR></TABLE>
He was probably trying to verify for himself and his own build procedures the apocryphal information that continues to leak out of both Honda and Spoon about the durability of the K20 versions.
07-09-2005, 05:38 AM
#24
H-T Order of Merit
Re: K series liability and destruction testing (slammed_93_hatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Nikos i think what you have done with your site is freakn great</TD></TR></TABLE>
Needs ZeroForum.
Nikos i think what you have done with your site is freakn great</TD></TR></TABLE>
Needs ZeroForum.
